The San Francisco Call. Newspaper, January 24, 1899, Page 2

/ 2 THE Sfl FRANCISCO CALL, TUESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1899 FULL STENOGRAPHIC REPORT OF THE INVESTIGATION. - GRANTS MONEY WENT TO WRIGHT Public Admission of the Candidate That It Was His Cash. INTERESTING ~ INVESTIGATION ~ WORK. Remarkable Paucity of Information Obtained From Those Who Are Generally Supposed to Know Most About the Senatorial Fight. CALL HEADQUARTERS, SACRA-|for United-States That, Segator a Republican. s the fight I wils making. TO, Jan. 23.—The special investl- | “Q "wyas there anything said to Mr. Jil- gating committee met in the Assembly | son about.supporting U. S. Grant for Sen- ber this morning at 10 o'clock. | ator? sl T g A. Well, I told him that he was a friend ollowing testimony was taken of mihe; " that is all.” He never pledged : himself to vote for anybody, nor I did not TESTIMONY OF DAN T. COLE. k him to.: > Q. Let. me see—what county is that? . That.is Siskiyou. . Do ‘you remember -the amount vou into other counties? . Oh, 1 do not know the amount, be- wse 1 dids not ‘put! in any particular amount. 1 sent men up there election 2 day or two before election—to do time C. Mint. little work. They did not have any mon- Q’ Do you know Judge Clough? Of course, the other hundred dollars : I have known him for| I spent traveling around myself, in ex- yenses. Mr. Sanford—Did Jilson take the $400? He took the $400. Mr. Burnett—As to Mr. Clough—have you a copy of your letter to him. A. I have mot. I did not Keep any copy. you Mr. Clough's letter to you? letter during g him any y wr him a aign, offe campai; letter? Hav w what became of 1t? o, i Q. Mr. Clough, in his testimony, in giv- mber the contents of | ing the substance of the letter to you, as at you can state its sub- | near as he could, said this, which is pre- sumably according to or from your letter —ihat IS from his memory? A Ye sub- - the ;1 can state its 1 do not rememb Q. “Now if you are in favor of Ulysses S. Grant for ° Senator’—this is Judge Clough’s explanation of your letter, or substance is all we want. You nomination 1 wrote him | rather quoting it from memory—‘‘now if andidate | you are in favor of Ulysses S. Grant for and if Senator, you can have whatever amount gn and | you require in order to mak vass.” Do you remember writing that? A. That is correct. That is correct. The chairman—In providing Lhis money to Mr. Jilson, did you instruct him to us it ir h manner as to pledge anybody’s influel for Mr. Grant? ut I want A. Not the least in the world. ot think Q. What instructions, if any, did you that I give him with reference to the use of the him, or any-| money? expressed my A. B ted to pled ell, I just stated. 1 will state it again, however. To use the money—of course, if he needed a little himself, why, he could use it, but, otherwise, he could “lette Did you in tf le who had people would probably vote for G use the balance of it for the State ticket, 3 as 1 haye stated before. Of course, we § had been assisted? did not know then that we were going to Mr. M “No; not who had been as- | have a landslide in this State, ana.we sisted, but who had said they would vote | were all interested in electing our Gover- for Grant? - nor and the ticket; and thé vote shows Well that is right. T think I said | up there that it did some good. or fifty. 1 do not think it was| Mr. La Baree—Mr. Cole, you say you 1 think it was forty or fif sent some money, or did 1 understand you ou told him in the let that you sent some money into Te- fifty people 1 already | County? pledged to vote for Mr.| A. Sent a man there. No: I did not | send any money; not.a dollar there. I | sent a man. The chairman—That is not clear, Mr. Cole. You sometimes say you sent a man and sometimes sent money. A. 1 did not send any money by him at vhat you did say thought there were would support Grant. emembrance of it. if anything, as|ail.” I bought him a ticket and seat him reason why 3 hought that forty | up_ there. ~7 or fifty would support Grant? | " Mr. Meilick—Who furnished these work- A. Well, I do not. know as I told him | ers with money? They had to have some- think I toid him my informa- :ason. thing to live on. A. T do not know; T did not furnish it. Q. You just gave them the transporta- . | ) that letter whose you tell him er Wi | tion? 10 ‘ou were offering to assist iim?| A. Yes, sir. A i not. | Q. How was the transportation—by a Q. Whose money e you offering him? | pass? _ : 1 do not know. A. No, sir; ticket. Q. You haven't any idea who paid them? A. No. He was a man that was interested up there, you know; lived there and voted at that place. You know he lived there. It was not an outsider—it was a voter. | Q. Now, as I understand it, in this case of Clough, you said, ‘‘Now, if you are in favor of U. 8. Grant for Senator, you can | have whatever amount you require in or- der to make your canvass.” Now in the | case of Mr. Jiison, you gave him four hun- dred dollars. You made this condition in the case of Clough. Did you not make some such condition in the case of Jil- . No, sir. I told him that I was a d ot his and would like to see him | clectea. ) Why do_you not know? ss I could tell you where I got | | I want to know. | Milton Green. | any authority from m U. -8. Graat Jr. to ance with Grant's money? , Sir. you wish me to explain A. The money wa of Gra it | plain anything that you | | 11, now, it was Grant’s money, was | 1t mot A. None in the world; none in the world. | .1 did not know whether it was or Mr. Burnett—How much money did Mr. | not. Gran ? . Well, it had come from Milton Green? > $500—not Grant. ~ Mr.| A. Yes, sir. - ne any. - Mr. Green.| Q. And knowing it was Milton Green's Q. How the informa- | money—the money that Milton Green gave tion that there' were or fifty men | you—you took it and used it to try and pledged to Grant? ou say, a Rallroad Commissoner, lid not say that. I did not son, up there? t for Gran:. obser was_ that he had Was it ifly men that were going to vote | given to you for that purpose? A. Well, it was_given to me by Mr. Green to use for what I thought was best, and he knew if the ticket was elected and the money was put into the general elec- tion, that it would help Him up there as well. y eral information what I heard— what Mr. Green told me. Q. You got it from Mr. Green? A. Yes; some of it, and some of it from| Q. Then why did you pick out this man my own ervation. I had been around | and that man? Why did not you say: through the country considerably. “We will give it to the County Central Q. Did vyou offer any assistance to amy | Committee, up there, of this county,” and other_candidates for the Assembly? | then have it used in that way? A. No, sir; not that I know of. Oh, I| A.Well, I knew this wa; I have did do this:’ I paid some money arouna | kiown Jilson for many years, and knew s—a little—to assist can- , not to them, but to P}nvumu that I sent out around—very lit- he knew everybody up in that country, and I thought he was the proper man to take hold of it and handle the money. Q. Why did you pick out this man and Q. Where did you put it? that man on the ticket and say, “Help A. 1 put some in—I sent some parties— | them?” fent a party into Tehama County and| A. Because T khoufht they were the into Nevada Count only men that were in danger. 1 knew Q. Did you send ‘a person from San | that Van Fleet had a hard fight, and the F | Governor; I knew .the balance of the But they | ticket would be elected, but I was afraid countie of our Governor at that time. from those counties? | Q. Was $500 the total amount that you iat iived there and Voted in | 80t? ¢ 7 | TA. Total amount. Never another dollar. Q. You had some hundred dollars to buy these tickets with? A. One of 1 was a man—I cannot | just remember his name; I v as A. Yes. well as I do e works Lo 88| 3 After-the $400 had been expended? And then I sent a couple of men up tnat| A- Yes. 1 do not know to vote and to get men to | Q. You just had $100 to buy these tickets the tick € the line—the | With? and in he val-| A. Yes, sir. Q. And you went on a trip with Mr. Griint, did you not? rant, wanted to go up Yes; that was before that. d them to go up | | there. | Q! Then you must have had money be- &, Did you give any money to Mr. Jil- | N = o A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he pay all your expenses? Q. How much? A. He paid my hotel expenses. A. $400. . Q. Then uat money was furnished out- e hys Toro theyslchumstances pitent T R aaian T ala sl _'A. The circumstances were these: furnish it. Jilson came down 0 the clty-he fo an o | QT méan he paid those Dills outside friend @f mine, by the way, I used to | °fythaL e pRia those bills. to take him around the State and intro- " What 31d you do on this tri | Q. What you do on this trip around? 1L right. | X' T just introduced him; that is all I Toney?” “Hg | gih I think'I won't . i bt Dveprt h& Jid you try to pledge a candidate to know him many vears ago in Sierra Coun- | —and said he was nominated for sembly We h was. He sad he thou, I said, "Do you ncrf said any No, I think not. need to make much fight.”” Well, I said, ‘““How is the general] v ticket up thére? How is the head of the | date 1 sh Hein bt tais thwe, 20 candl- ticket—the Governor. — Well, he_ said, . Anv possiblu candldates? LIt's pretty strong Maguire up there.” | A N never saw any candidate or Well, T dit _\flunllwu!erk‘?k; ome ‘pons | talked with them about if. But I intro- ey and use it for the ticket—for the head of the ticket and or Judge Van Fleet, who | Shatner they Heh b oy could see hes_a very hard fight, and for the ‘Rail- | road Commissioner; also for the State Sen- afor—State Senator from that district.” Of course, my object was to elect a Re- publican Legislature, so we could elect Q. Did not you write some similar let- ter to the one that —ou wrote to Clough, to some other candidate? No, sir; not a scratch of a pen. Q. You are very certain that you did not i tell Mr. Jilson? Well, did you have an idea, though, that Mr. Jilson was going to vote for Grant? A: Well, I thought he would. I thought he would myself, because I told him T thought he was the coming man. I told him he was a strong man. Q. What did Jilson tell you that led you to believe that he was going to vote for Mr. Grant? A. Well, nothing in par- ticular; only thatl thought he would. Q. Why did you think he would? A. Well, from his talk. He never pledged himself to Mr. Grant. [ would not ask him to pledge himself, any- way. Q. But you thought he was going to vote for Grant? A. 1did, yes. Q. And then you gave him $400 to use up there? A. Yes. Mr. Sanford—You would not have given him that $400 had you not thought he would vote for Grant, or would you? A. Well, i do not know about that. Ido not know as I would. [ perhaps would not. Mr. Mellick—Then you could not have Q. Did you answer and try to explain that it was not a bribe? A. Oh, no. He knew better than that— he knew better than that. He knew that 1 would not try to bribe him. He did not so_state either, did he? Q. He said that when he got the letter he was somewhat hot, and replied that you had known him ‘for thirty-five or orty vears and ought to know that he! would not accept a bribe. A. No. And there was no bribe in it. T have testified that way. Q. Well, the general run of it—that he wrote back to you—was that he was very much surprised; he knew that you would not offer him a bribe, but it came so near that sense, that he would be taking can- vass money, that he replied very warmly to you; and that you wrote back to him saying that you had not meant a bribe, but simply canvass money,if he needed it. Mr. Melleck—I think you are mistaken about that, Mr. Sanford. He stated like this: That they would talk together as father and son would talk together, or as brothers- would talk together, and never thought of such proposition as Dan Cole proposing to bribe him, The chairman—He answered your letter saying that he was surprised that you would ever attempt to bribe him or offer any inducements? A. T would not only not bribe him be- cause T had known him so long, but I would not undertake to bribe anybody. Q. In any of those efforts on your part to asist the legislative or State ticket did you seek in exchange for your assistance to pledge anybody in their vote in any manner? A. No, sir. o | TESTIMONY OF C. M. BELSHAW. C. M. Belshaw, being duly sworn, tes- tified as follows: * The chairman—State your name to the committee. A. C. M. Belshaw. Q. Your residence. A. Antloch, Contra Costa county. Q. You are an Assemblyman of this LeAglilature? . Iam. Q. ?u])ou know R. C. Dale? A. I do. Q. Did you have a conversation with R. C. Dale in the Golden Eagle Hotel this city recently, in which the subject- matter of a financial offer for his vote was under discussion? Yes. In whose presence did that conversa- tion take place? A. Well, now, I do not know. he was a stranger to me. Do you remember whether Captain Barbour was present? You know Cap- tain Barbour, don’t you? in | I think | stood him to say—or anybody else. The idea was to break up Mr. Grant’s forces. Q. Was there anything to the effect that he was to have $3000 to make Bulla his second choice? Well, Mr. Dale did not tell me so; no. Q. He did not? A. No; I have heard that rumor—as I say, I read it in the papers. Q. Then your information upon that is the article by Mr. Washburn in the Los Angeles Times? A. Yes; that is the principal source of information. I have heard' it, of course, rumored around—talked about—that there was $3000 offered. . Have you any other information {than the conversation with Mr. Dale that you refer to, as to whether an offer of $3000 was made by Bulla, or anybody else in his behalf, to make Mr. Bulla the second choice of Mr. Dale for United States Senator? A. I have not. Q. Have you stated all that you can re- member of the conversation between you and Mr. Dale on the occasion referred to? A. Yes, sir; I think I have. I have re- lated parts of two conversations. One took place—the first took place here in the Assembly chamber and the last one was_in the Golden Eagle Hotel, and I think I have stated the substance of the conversations. Q. Both of them? A. Both of them, yes. The first one T | tried to get from Mr. Dale the name of | the person who had made the offer to him; and the last one was a conversa- tion, as I have said, in which—I think that he started it by complaining to me | because I put him in a position to have | to_come before this committee, and testify. { Mr. Burnett—How did you come to enter | into conversation with him in the first | place in regard to this matter? A, Mr. Crowder informed me that im- roper methods were being used by the ulla people, and I asked him on whom, and he told me Mr. Dale. Then I went to Mr. Dale to find out. Q. Did Mr. Dale, in that first conver- sation, state that an offer had been made him—a financial offer? A. That is what I understood him, yes —that he was to vote for Mr. Bulla for a consideration, and he further went on to say—I understood him to say for Barnes, or Barnes either. And from the | rest of the conversation I gleaned that | they wanted him to bresk up Mr. Grant’s | forces—that is. to make a break in Grant's forces. Q. What did Mr. Crowder state to you when he said that improper methods were being used? Did he make any definite | statement? | "A. No; except that the Bulla people were going to the Grant people and mak- ing improper advances. 1 was finding AQSSEMBLYMAN CROW DER_ MMADE A& GOOD WITNESY FO®R GRANT Col’ -7 PresTOoN RELATES TME- CONVERIATION ME MAD NWITN AMOSE AOSE- QGUNST COMTRADICTS ATTY. PREDSTON been using this money to help or aid all the ticket, could you? T A. Yes. When he said he did not think he wanted to make any canv. and did not need the mon I said: “Take the money out there; it will help you, any: way, and_put it in the general fight. That_js what I told him to do. Q. You say now that if you had not thought he was a Grant man you would not have given him that money, and yet vou say that money was given to help the Weak places on the whole ticket? A. Well, that is what it was. Q. How 'do you reconcile your two state- ments; one that you would not have giv- en it to him to spend if you had not thought he was a Grant man? A. 1 did not say that. and see what I said. The reporter read the answer of the wit- ness given before. Mr. Sanford—You say you knew the $400 came from Grant? A. It came from Green. Q. You knew Green was manager of Grant’s campaign? A. Yes; I think so. Q. You knew this money was to help legislators favorable to Grant, and you would not have given it to Jilson had you not thought that he was for Grant? A. Well, he could help the Legislature if he was not for Grant. There was a Senator running up there that I wanted to see electe: Q. It like when you wrote to Clough; you told him that if he was fa- vorable to Grant he could have all the canvass money he wanted. A. No; I guess not that. I said I would assist him; that is my memory of it— not that he could have all the money he wanted. Q. All the canvass money. Then he wrote te you that he did not want any such monéy, and then, of course, you did not send him any of that money? Mr. Burnett—Did Mr. Jilson ask you whose money it was that you gave him? . He did not. The chairman—If I remember the rec- ord right, Mr. Cole, your language to Mr. Clough was that if he was favora- ble to Grant you would assist him. Am I right? A. Yes. Q. Well, by that means—I am right in the Inference, am I not?—you tried to learn that he was favorable to Grant be- fore you offered him assistance? A. Well, T do not know. I told him that I was for Grant, as I said before; that I was for Grant' and that I would like to see him elected. And he asked me what I thought of his candidacy, and I thought he would make a very strong candidate. Q. Well, do you remember the reply that Mr. Clough made to you by letter? A. Well, not altogether. Q. Have you got the letter? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know what become of it? A. It is in the wastebasket or burned , 1 suppose. “1:2. Nov’\’rpwnl you kindly state to thecom- mittee all that you can remember of its contents? s A. Well, the substance of it was this: That he was not going to make any can- vass, and if he was he did not want any assistance; he could use his own money. Q. Was there any statement in that let- ter with reference to what parties, if any- body, had been pledged to Grant? B A. 1 think there was something of this kind: That he said that he did not think it a proper thing to pledge himself any- way. In fact, he did not pledge himseif, nor would not, nor did I ask him to; but you know that. And I did not, according to my version of my own letter—I did not state that any man was pledged to Grant. Q. When you told him these numbers of ‘people that would vote for Grant you did not say that they were pledged? A. Oh, no, no. Oh, no. Q: Did you use any Janguage from which he could properly infer that? A. Well, T do not know. I told him I fifty men Of course, thought there were forty or that were favorable to Grant. Clough _would remember I know that perhaps, Mr. r than I do. el be“eh swears to here is to the I know him so well Taat e heer st of his B tlfn‘i I know he Is' a very honorable, up- man. flg"'you would not seek, then, to modify of the statements made by Mr, this correspondence? o notI kngw exE what it 5 0 no know but what I would. I _do not know exactly what it was. But I know that Mr. Clough said what he thought was in that letter. - Of course he cannot remember exactly what is in the letter any more than I can. 3 Q. ’ld you reply to Mr. Clough's an- swer? A. Yes, sir. 1 think—no, I do not thipk I did, either. No, I do not think I did. Mr., Sanford—Well, in Mr. Clough'’s let- ter, did he not state that he was surprised that you tried to bribe him? ' A. No, sir. any Clough concernin A. No — really Just go back | | A. Yes, I know him. I don’t think he was; 1 don't remember that he was. ‘Were there any others than your- self, Mr. Dale and the stranger present? | A. Well, it was right in the lobby of the Golden Eagle Hotel, very close to the telegraph office there, right against the door as you go info the office, and there were a number of people, I guess, around there. I did not notice them, though; I did not notice who thei’l were. Do vou know whether they were close encugh to have heard the conver- sation? A. Well, T do not know. they did, because, when I I guess maybe talk about these things, 1 generally talk loud ennu);:h so people can hear me—unfortu- nately. Q.When was that conversation? i A‘. I think it was Friday or Saturday ast. Q. You may state it to the committee. A. I cannot give it word for word., I forget just exactly how the conversation started; but, if I remember, Mr. Dale ‘was complaining to me because I had got- ter him into a position so that he would have to testify before the committee, and I told him it 'was his owu fault, and we went over the conversation again of his being influenced by somebody to change his vote to Mr. Bulla, and he told me that he did not believe it; that he thought it was—thought it did not amount to any- thing; that it was not true. And I said to him: *“What did you say so for, then? Why didn’t yeu keep it to yourself? And if you had Kept it to yourself—if you had your opinion of it—if that was your opin- fon, that it was an idle rumor and was not true,” says I, “you wouldn’t have had to go on the stand, probably.” “Well,” e said, “I didn’t say anylhlns about it.” ell,”” said I, “yes you did.” Said_1I: “You told it to Mr. Crowder and Mr. Crowder told it to me, and I went to you to find out about it.” And I further said: ‘I wanted to find out if Mr. Bulla was of- fering $3000 for votes, and if he was I wouldn’t vote for him"”; and he said that it put him in a peculiar position to mix up a friend in this investigation. I presume he meant the man who had made the proposition to him, if there was any prop- osition—if it amounted to anything— would have to be put on the stand. That was the way I understood it, and that was the substance of the conversation at that time; that he did not think I had done the right thing in putting him in a position to be brought before this com- mittee. He further stated there, at that time, that he did not believe it was true that there was any money being—that he thought it was an idle rumor, or a josh maybe, or something of that kind; and he thought possibly it was, further, stated to break up Mr. Grant’s forces. Q. In that conversation was the subject ;7110':})115 rumor a part of your conversa- A. Why, it was all of the conversation, principaily. Q. What was there stated as to who WtAs {?e"pe;son wh(]) had(dm&t?e the offer? - Well, he merely said that it was friend of his; that lg all. 2 Q. Did you understand that it was one Copeland, an attorney for the Southern Pacific Railroad Company? A. No; I tried to get him to give me the name some days ago. I went to Mr. Dale when he first told me of the proposition, and tried to get him to give me the name; told him that he was not treating us fair by not giving the name, and he wotild not glve the name. But at this special—this particular conversation rather, that we had on Friday or Saturday—he did not sive the name, but merely said that it was a friend. Q. Did he ever' 3. fi‘ed\‘er did. 3 you ever learn it throu other source? shLjany A. I never did, no. T think I read it in the Times that it was somebody by the name of Copeland, but of my own knowl- edge I know nothing. Q. DI he state anything as to the manner in which any supposed offer was made? A. Mr. Dale, you mean? / . Xes. A. No, if T am not mistaken I think he sald it was to be a flnancial considera- tion. T am not positive about that, but that is the way I understood it. Q. Was the amount of the financial con- sideration named? A. Not at all. Q. Were any of the conditions under which the consideration is supposed to have been offered named? ‘A. No; I think that Mr. Dale stated, when I had the conversation before the Saturday conversation, that the idea was that he should vote for Barnes or any- body else, to break up—the idea that he gave me was that it was to break up Grant’s forces. That is the idea that I got from conversation with him. Q. Mr. Dale had been voting for Mr. Grant, had he? A. Mr. Dale had been voting for Mr. give you the name? 1Grunt. and he was to go te Bulla, I'under- fault with the methods that I thought Mr. Grant was using as improper; and Mr. Crowder told me to_the effect that the Bulla people were doing the same | thing, and g oughtn’t to find any .fault. Q. And Mr. Dale was the only one that Mr. 7Crowder mentioned in that connec- tion? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Dale was the only one that he mentioned. The chairman—Do you remember, Mr, Belshaw, how you got the impression that Mr. Dale conveyed to your mind that the whole thing might be a * A. Because he told me so. Mr. Burnett—Was that the second con- versation? A. The second conversation, ves; that he did not believe it at all. And then I told him further—I told him: “Well, if you didn’t believe it, what did you say anything about it for? If you had kept it to yourself, and thought it was a joke, why, then, you wouldn’t have had to have gone before the committee—that is, I Would not have said anythin f course I wanted to find out if Bulla was using those methods. The chairman—Yes, I think you have stated that. 4 hlA' If he was, why, I wouldn’t vote for m. Mr. Lardner—Mr. Belshaw, who was it that you understood was to_furnish the improper consideration for Mr. Dale to break away from Mr. Grant? Was it to be Mr. Barnes, or Mr. Bulla, or some of his friends, or was it simply to persuade him to break away and vote for some- body? A. Well, I think he distinctly said that he did not think that Mr. Bulla knew anything about it. Of course the infer- ence would be, from that, that it.would be, possibly, some of Mr. Bulla's friends, or some friends of somebody interested. Q. Did he intimate anything as to Mr. Burns' friends? A. No, sir. Q. He simply intimated that it was to break up Mr. Grant's forces and vote for somebody? A. Yes; that was the idea that I had —the idea that I got in the first conver- sation. The chairman—How about the secona conversation? . ‘Well, the second conversation was where he intimated that he did not be- lieve it; that he thought it was an idle rumor; that he did not think there was anythihg'in it. The committee then adjourned to meet at 2:30 p. m. THE AFTERNCON SESSION. The committee of special investiga- tion met in room 73 of the Capitol, pur- suant to adjournment from the morn- ing session, this afternoon at 2:30 o’clock. Present: Chairman Cosper, Sanford, La Baree, Burnett, Mellick, Lardner. The chairman—I want to make a sug- gestion. That is, that we confine this testimony now \'erl‘; closely to what is the fact, and not what is rumor, because we are never going to get through if we do not; but wherever there is a fact—a specific statement of a fact—let us go right to the milk of the matter. That is the suggestion. E. S. CROWDER'S TESTIMONY. Assemblyman E. S. Crowder was called to the witness stand, and being duly sworn, testified as follows: The chairman—Mr. Crowder, Assemblyman of this Legislature? A. Yes, sir. Q. From San Diego? A. Well, I am from La Mesa, San Diego County. Q. Do you know an Assemblyman of gflls "Leg slature by the name of R. C. ale? A. I do. Q. Did you ever have any convers-.ion with him since the sitting of this Legis- lature relative to the use of money in in- dQucing a change of vote for a candidate for United States Senator, or anything of that character? A. W{ell, something of that character; yes,, sir. Q. Where did that conversation take place. A. In the Golden Eagle Hotel. Q. When? A. 1 don’t remember, Mr. Chairman. A few days ago—a few evenings ago. Q. In whose presence did that conver- sation occur? A. Well, if you want to ask me if I know—I know who I think was there. Q. Well, who do you think was there? A. Well, 1 think Mr. Raub was there. g. Mr. Raub—Assemblyman Raub? . Yes, sir. Q. Any others that you think of now? A, Oh, there were a lot of gentlemen there. 1 don’t think of anybody else that heard the conversation. Q. Can you state the substance of that conversation? Well, you want me to tell what led up to the conversation? Q. I simply want to know whether you remember it well enough so as to state the substance of it. A. Yesy I can. Q You\{nay state the substance of that conversation”to the committee. . Well, I was talking to Belshaw in the hotel, and he was exfolling the merits of Mr. Bulla and deprecating Mr. Grant, and I took issue with him, and we were just finishing up and he had rather squelched me with his oratory, when Mr. Dale came in and said: “I would like to have had a word to say about that mat- ter. I could have told him something that happened to me.” He said: “I was approached by a Southern Pacific attor- ney, who offered to make it to my finan. cial advantage if I would vote for Mr. Bulla. Mr. Burnett—Mr. Dale said this, I un- derstand? A. Yes. The chairman—In that conversation, did Mr. Dale say anything as to the amount? A. No, sir. Q. Of financial advantage? A. No, sir. Q. Did he say who was the Southern Pacific attorney who had made such a proposition? A. No, sir. Q. Did he give to you any statement as to the nature of the proposition that was made? A. No, sir. Q. You have stated the time and’ place as accurately as you can? A. Yes, sir; I have. I might figure it up a little closer. No—it is within the past n'ex;g(; a few days ago. I don’t know the Q. Was anything saild_as to what gg;gge was to be made fh his vote, it A. His vote was to be for Bulla. Q. He had been votin Grant, y e ting for Grant, you A. Yes, sir. o A}&cfl;va:h%x:lylém?g said as to whether Ch:‘cf7d en be his second . 1 don't believe that Mr. Dale ev. sald anything to me about that. 1 have heard it talked around about “second choice,” but I am sort of confused abour it. I don't think Mr. Dale ever said a word to me about second choice. Q. Was anything said as to what man- ner it would be to his financial aavane tage? .%,hNo.hsl‘r. e chairman—. ge‘l"itlemcn? ‘man—Any further questions, Mr. Burnett—Did you make any reply to Mr. Dale When he made that Siatements A. I listened and told him I wished 1 :x}rlnéireknown that when Mr. Belshaw was Q. Was there anythin A, M skaubid”&'mk kg Mr. Mellick—Did yow ask = - thing about this any oLherh{{meD?ulE i A. Well, Mr. Belshaw renewed the con- versation on the floor of the Assembly one day, and I took the liberty of mak- ing these statements to hfm, and he went over to verify it, I believe, with Mr. Dale —or something of that kind. Q. I mean, did you talk to Mr. Dale about this same propositi v o proposition any other A. Oh, it has just heen mentioned i {Idr:s(]‘_a;‘e. He said—I was sitting nw?:;’l e last evening, wh 6 at arms served e sub come nefore this committee,~ 1O0 M€ 1 Mr. La Baree—Mr. Crowder, was that the night that Mr. i ricken w the night that Mr. Dale was stitcken with o; T think it was before’ that, doctor. T Raoa o waiSht that night. * It might have been the day heQru?;l ihat—or evening before. 5 you hear ythi: s ei’enlng? him say anything about A Stetie r. Mellick—Did Mr. Dale give yo Lfltg%: that it was just a josh,gor a s?n?:? A."Well, there was no “josh” ab : that is'my idea. e thousht it st i right. I believed it was all right myself, Mr. Burnett—Have you ascertained who it was that made the offer to Mr. Daje? o, sir; I have hot. 4 The chairman—If there are no further questions the witness will be excused. You are excused, Mr.: Crowder. COLONEL PRESTON TESTIFIES. Colonel E. F. Preston was called as a wvitness and sworn, and testified as fol- lows: The chairman—State your name to the committee, please. A. E. F. Preston. Q. Where do you reside? A. Woodside, San Mateo County. Q. What is your business? A. Attorney-at-law. Q. Do you know Moses Gunst? A. T do. Q. Do vou know Daniel M. Burns? 8' big h 5 vou ever have a convers with Moses Gunst relative to the us?[(g} money to promote the election of a Uni- ted States Senator? 5 es. Q. State where and when that conver- sation took place. A. As nearly as I can remember, a day or two before the first of the year—pos- sibly ~om Sunday, the first of the year, I am not* certain about that; I might be off a week or ten days—prior. But I think it was very nearly the first of the vear, in his store on Kearny street in San rancisco. Q. Do you remember the substance of that conversation? Yes, sir. Q. You may state it to the committee. Oh—first—who were present? A~ Nobody. Q. Xou were there, and Mr. Gunst? A. Well, I am nobody, and Mr. Gunst was there. g Q. Now you may state the substance of the conversation. A. Mr. Gunst came from the rear of the store to the front and spoke to me about the attacks that The ‘Call was making upon him. told “him I had nothing whatever to do with the management of The Call, and was not responsible for any articles that appeared in it. Mr. Gunst said that it would have to stop. “It must be stopped.” I told him that I had nothing to do with it; that I was the attorney for The Call, but was. in no way responsible for any articles that ap- peared, never saw them and had nothing to do with the policy of the paper. From that it went to a conversation. on the Senatorial situation and a discussion of the availability of the candidates, and Mr. Gunst said, in discussing Mr. Burns’ availability, that he had spent $19,000 of his own money in the fight. It made an impression upon my mind at the time, because it was in conflict with other statements that I had heard made on the street, and left a very peculiar condition of thnught in my mind. That is all. The chairman—You say he spent $19,000 in the fight. Was the nature of the fight defined? What I mean about that is this, colonel: Was the fight spoken of the fight for the election of a United States Senator? A. Yes; we were talking about - the Senatorial fight. Q. Had it any bearing at all on the general ticket? A. No, sir; not to my mind. The gen- eral ticket was not mentioned. We were discussing the Senatorship. The chairman—Any questions further, gentiemen? Mr. Burnett—Did he tell you how he cal{nery tlhat knowledge? A. No, sir. Q. Did he speak of any particular place in which Mr. Burns had spent money? A. No, sir. . Did he mention the name o. any can- didate or any member of the Legislature? A. No, sir. We were discussing the availability of Mr. Grant and of Mr. Burns' candidacy and Mr. Burns' claims to be a Senator. was opposing Mr. Burns' position, and knowing Mr. Gunst's relations with Mr. Burns Q. What are they? A, Very close relations. So close that the California Jockey Club, with which Mr. Burns is connected, is in rooms in the new building which Mr. Gunst has taken on Kearny street; and anybody who knows politics in San Francisco knows that Mr. Burns and Mr. Gunst are close friends. I don’t think either Mr. Burns or Mr. Gunst disputes that. The conver- sation,in my mind, was predicated on just the same state of affairs as if I was taik- ing to Mr. Burns myself, so far as .the relations between the men were con- cerned—I can tell you that I was talking to a very close, intimate ¢riend of his. He did not say who had the money that was sgent or to whom it was spent; or nng. thing of that sort. He did not say the “State Central Committee”; but he sim- ply said that he knew that Burns haa spent $19,000 of his money. And we were discussing the Senatorial fight. Q. Did _lyou discuss that matter any further? That is, the amount? A. No, sir, Q. Did not ask him how he knew? A. No, sir. Mr. La Baree—~That is about all the conversation witk him? A. That is about all the conversation. That is everything that was said, Mr. Mellick—Had Colonel Burns’ candi- dacy been announced at that time? A. I think it had; yes, sir. I am quite certain. 1 knew of Mr. Burns’ candidacy some time before it was—that is, I con- sidered it was a fired fact in my mind fhat he was going io be a candidate be- ore the papers took it up, or before Mr. Burns made a public announcement. Mr. Burnett—How did you come to that impression, Mr. Preston? A. Talk on the street and things that Wwere said; common rumors and knowl- edge amongst men who were acquainted wlthSouncal affairs, Hearsay, of course. Q. Do you know of any money or other valuable consideration—promise of pat- ronage or otherwise—that has been offered any member of the Legislature in rela- ::1";5' to his vote for United States Sena- A. I do not. Q. Do you know of any source to which you can point this commlttee from which they can gain the information? A. Idonot. I wish I could. The chairman—If there are no further gyflsvilons to this witness he will be ex- MOSE GUNST ON THE STAND. Moses Gunst, called as a witness and sworn, testified follows: The chairman—You may state your name to the committee. A. M. A. Gunst. Q. And_your residence? A. %7 Hyde street, San Francisco. Q. And’ your business? A. Tobacconist. Q. Do you know one Colonel Preston \Vl}\n {‘ust testified before this committee? . Yes, sir. Q. You heard his testimony? 29 Yes, sir. Q. Do you know Daniel M. Burns? A. Very well. . Do you know that Daniel M. Burns lsAa candidate for United States Senator? ; Tedb: Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Colonel Preston in your place of business in the city of San Francisco, on or about the first day of January of this year, wherein the subject matter of your conversation the candidacy of Dan- iel M. Burns for the United StatesSenate? Al had a conversation with Colonel Preston about some time—I think about the 26th of December. Q. You heard his testimony on the stand here I understand you to say? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that the conversation you now refer to? A. No, sir. Q. It was not? A, yes; it was the conversation. You asked what conversation we had— Q. It was the conversation you now re- fer to? You remember the conversation that you had—the substance of it? A. 1 do. : Q. You may state it to the committee. A. T was at the rear of my store. I came up and put my arm on the side of the shelving on the left hand side. Colonel Preston was playing the machine. I stood there, and after he got through he came over to where I was standing and he sai to me,” *“How are you, “How do you 4 a Mose?’ I said " He -says, , “I haven't Who is going to be Sen- don’t xnow.” He says, s going to enter this con- says, “If he is he has not told me so, but I am acquainted with—I know the nature of the man, and if this Call over here don'tstop lving and abusing him that will be the cause of him going into ‘olo nto the Senatorial figh “1 will tell you: I ad- mire Colonel Burns and.like him very much as a man.”” He said it was true he was engaged by these people over there, “but I have nothing to do with the run- ning of that paper.” He O g tell you—he says—“1 have en stump- ing this State and spending my money and they have promised to see m through. 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