Evening Star Newspaper, October 30, 1930, Page 4

'HAMILTON DENIES GODDARD'S GLAIMS Campbell Retrgcts Charge That Gloth Substituted Death Bullets. (Continued From First Page. the defense in 16 per cent of the cases, while in the remainder he testified for both sides. “During my 45 years of experience in dealing with firearms,” the witness said, “I have visited numerous fac- \tories and studied their tools and ma- chines. I have devoted a great deal of time to the study of various forms and types of ammunition.” “How many methods of procedure are there in ballistics work?” pursued Smith. “There are two today in dealing with firearms or bullets,” Hamilton re- sponded. “What are they?” “The older one dates back 40 or 45/ years. It consists of tsking a gun and mortal or death bullets, sitting at a table and microscopically or chemically ing them and Dboervm“ what the so-called expert sees, so that he can in turn point out to a layman or jury the salient points. All that is o that method is one eye anda brain back of it. “The other method is the modern procedure. In performing it, I sui- round myself with instruments. The only way to illustrate the results ob- tained is by microphotographs, and unless vou are an expert photographer there is no way to tell whether I'm correct in what I inform you. This method means that you are bound te accept my position merely because I it.” Smith interrupted at this point to ask the witnsss if he knew to what school of ballistics Col. Calvin H. God- dard, the Government expert, belonged. “His own,” Hamilton countered. “Have you ever observed or followed his methods?” “Yes, sir. Since 1924.” “Has Col. Goddard ever sought in- structions from you?” “Yes, siz.” “How long ago was it when he sought such instructions?” “In October, 1924, and in November, 1927, by mail and in person. Displays His Charts. to a discussion of ballistics, the defense atiorney undertook to learn ballistics to be an exact seience. “Ballistics,” Hamilton replied, “as a general term includes the Navy, the Army, sporting goods and firearms.” “What is the meaning of the term “forensic ballistics'?"” “The study of firearms that comes before l‘r!-\n of justice, either civil or crimin “To what extent, if at all, have you studied the compound comparison mic- roscope, and have you watched it gen- erally?>” “Por 25 years I have studied that de- . I originated the idez, but not for the purposes to which it is now being Hamilton said be originally had in- tended to develop the comparison micro- tion of two micro- for use in handwriting investi- At this point, the witness was asked to identify the revolver submitted to authorities by Campbell. He said the was the weapon he had exam- October 13 and on subsequent oc- s. Asked what measurements he had made of the Campbell pistol, the bul- lets alleged by the Government to have extracted from the body Miss Baker and of test bullets he bad fired the defendant's pistol, Hamuiton it would be necessary for him to y charts in order to explain his . He was permitted to tack the| charts on a blackboard near the jury | box without objection by the prosecu- Points Out Defects. to a chart representing the! mul:fl'w'l pistol, the witness said the defendant’s gun had been rified defective manner. . - '."hlt 1 mean by that” he explained, *4g that by looking into the bore of the pistol and at the corner of the it is easy to see defects. Ap- the cutting blade that rifled crystal slugs had been discharged . He said the measurements on the death bullets revealed they had eurements of which Were more regu- measurements of Wi were more - lar than these of the Campbell Will Let Jury Judge. iced the 10 test bul- colored and bullets are clean, indicating conclusively that the mortal slugs were not fired from | the Campbell pistol.” It was here that Hamilton declared: *I am prepared to let the jury be their OWR experts. Hamilton declared his measurements SUSPECT RELATES ACTIONSONAPRIL T Details What He Did in Effort to Establish Alibi in Baker Death Case. | | The transeript of the highlights of | the tastimony by Herbert M. Cam) bell when he appeared on the witness stand in own_ behalf yesterday follows: PIRECT EXAMINATION. By Mr. Vandoren: Q. Mr. Campbell, you are the defend- an; In this casz? o A. Yes, sir. Q. Where do you live? A. Virginia Highlands, Va. Q. How long have you lived there? A I have lved the immediate neighborhood ce about 1912, Q. You are th: husband of the Mrs. Campbell who has preceded you here on the witness stand? | Q. Thestepfather of Edward Callahan, 1 who has also testified in this case? A. Yes, s1. Q. During the course of this trial you heard the testimony given by the differ- ent witnesses, both for the Government and for the defense. Is that col t? A. Yes, sir. . Q. I want to come at once to the day of April the 11th, 1930, Mr. Campbs Do you recall jt? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall on the afternoon of that day of your movements on afternoon of that day? A. 1 do; yes, sir. . Will you detail them in your own way and in your own words to his honor and these gentlemen. A. Do you want me to start with my movements on the morning, or at—- Telis of Afternoon. Q. T doubt if the morning is mate- rial. Suppos¢ ycu come along about noon or shorf'y after noen on that day. A. At noch I had lunch at my own home in Virginia Highlands at about B I went from there to my 3 where 1 prepered the contract for the 4 |painting of my house with one, Her- man H. Barrere. I had a telephone call from Mrs. Parsons, and made an appointment to meet her at Sixteenth and H streets, in Washington, between 2:15 and 2:30. 1 left the office, as nearly as I can re- member, about a quarter of two. Due to traffic congestion and one thing and other, and one stop that I made at the south end cf the Highway Bridge, it was as nearly as I ean settle in my mind now 15 or 20 minutes past two wien I got to Sixteenth and H streets. Mrs. Parsons was standing there at the time on the park side of H street, the south side of H street. She got into the machine. I drove over through Georgetown, over ‘M street, stopped at the Potomac Savings Bank for a mo- ment, and drove out M sireet across the Key Bridge, north on Lee Boule- vard—Wilson Boulevard—te the town of Ballston, Va. I stoj at 8 building operation there that—a house that was being built by a Mr. Bean—whom I wanted to see on business. He wasn't there. I went back down the Wi'son Boule- vard to the town of Rossyin, down the Cemetery road, and as I passed the yard of the Penn Oil Co. two colored men that I had sent over to get oil to be mixed with the sawdust for the miniature golf course were in the yard with the truck of the Penn Off Corpo- ration. They had been told to come over early in the day by me, to haul this ofl. As I went past the yard—it was crank case draining that is used for mixing the sawdust—crank case draining and green paint. As I the yard I saw the truck in there and the two fellows were sky-larking. It occurred to me that they were wasting a whole lot of time. had the and had come to the first en- trance to the. Ariington Cemetery, which is the Sheridan gate. Waited for Traffic to Puss. T do not like to contradict Mrs. Par- sons’ testimony, but the car did not go into Arlington Cemetery at any t:me on that day. There is a dirt road that runs off up into the old part of the cemetery as it leaves the concrete road. I pulled the car just off of the road at that point, just off of the concrete cn to this dirt road in full view of the main road, the main line of travel, and waited there to see how long it would be before these fellows came by. I pre- sume 1 was there for possibly—as near- 1y as I can recollect—a haif an hou: maybe 40 minutes; may have been three-quarters of an hour. Comdr. J. A. Powler of the Navy Department passed the car at the time, and whether he saw me or not I don't know, but I was off on the part of the road that could be seen by any traffic going past. We sat there and talked about com- monpldce things. As I have tried to point out to the Arlington County au- | thorities and the Washington police, the | car was not parked in an obscure place at all. It was parked on the main high- of the fatal bullets showed a regularity in the width of Jands and grooves, ing 9-100s of an incl wide and the latter 10-100s of an inch. “This makes an absolute discrimi- pation between the inortal bullets and tanse I fired from Campbell’s gun,” the expert declared. Hamilton passed to the jury the two 1z al bullet and the 10 tesi slugs, fired from Campbell's revolver, and let them Jo-k at the slugs under a hand magni- i ass. Hamiiton inserted an ex- te lectric light in & socket on the clork’s desk and illuriinated the bullers the jurors’ hands by this means. After examining the bullets carefully, the jurors passed them back to the ‘witness. Hamilton produced another chart filustrating the land and groove marks on the fatal bullets and pointed out & renroducsion of what he declared to be 22 geratches he htd found in the groove and land marks of the mortal slugs. Scratches Not Dependable. “I can't find any similar marks on | side of the Basin, south on Fourteenth | any of the test bullets 1 fired,” the wit~ ness sald. discussion of striations left on bullets by the rifling of a barrel, Hamilton con- cluded with a declaration that such scratches are not dependable. “Fingerprint! of bullets doesn't mean anything,” he asserted. ‘That 18 Just a play of words.” The term “fingerprints” has been ap- plied by Col. Goddard and Dr. Souder to marks left on a bullet by irregulari- ties in the barrel, and both experts con- tend these fingerprints are just as re- Jiable as a means of bullet identifica- tion as human fingerprints are in crim- ina) identification. Attorney Smith walked forward and ¢ Xed the witness: 3 “Prom the measurements you made of the two mortal bullets and of the|day did you have a phone conversa- 10 test bullets you fired from Camp- , s it possible that the two mortal bullets could have been fired from Campbell's nvolvnx “It’s & certainty they cannot,” Hamil- ton reruod “If 1 fired a thousand times, it would be impossible to obtain narks found on the fatal bullets. There % absolutely no comparison between ‘the mortal lets and the test bullets Sired from Campbell’s revolver.” At the request of the defense atiw- Entering into a technical | way. At about a quarter past or half past {4 I left to go back to Washington to | take Mrs. Parsons back to Ler home, {which I did. I proceeded across the | Highway Bridge, over the—over what i they call the Military road. down past | the two flying fields, and over the High- way Bridge to 2100 Nineteenth street. | T did Dot enter the apartment house. 1 left Mrs. Parsons at the curb and proceeded down Nineteonth street to— now this is entirely conjecture, this vart !of the trip back to my home. When { the police In Arlington County askod me what route I took home on that { afternoon I told them that if,I took the logical route, the route that I | would take to get me home in the < quickest manner, that I would proceed | south on Nineteenth street ic Dupont | Girele, again south on Nineteenth street, !to Virginia avenue. Out Virginia av | nue, east on Virginia avenue, to Se: enteenth street and down Seventeenth | street to the Basin. Around the north street. across the Highwey Bridge At that time they said, “Well, you did pass Mary Baker's car.” If Mary | Baker's car was parked where I under- | stand it was parked at Seventeenth and | B streets I very possibly did pass it. I ! was given the impression at that time that Miss Baker's car was parked across from the Pan-American Union Building ! at Seventeenth and B streets. I didn't s in the Alexandria shown by a news ar had been parked. Tells of Telephone Cal | After I crossed the Highway Bridge i1 went over the lower road to Alex- fandria. I went to Taishoff’s store. | Mr. Campbell. | to that ride with Mrs. Parsons on that tion with her relative to it? A. |, Q. ‘Vandoren. talk with her that A what took place at that time? A ‘occasion 1 did, yes, sir. Will you state what that was, and I cannot state exactly when it ‘Well, approximately, as close as tsons called me elther on Circle, around the right side of Dupont | Q. _Let me interrupt you s moment, | ng At any time subsequent | 1 don’t understand your question, After that ride with Mrs. Par- sons on April 11 did you at any time over the telephone about 2 & HE EVENING STAR, WASHINGTON, here that I hadn't thought about it. I hadn't given it any thought. I re- minded her at that time that Comdr. Fowler had passed the car and that 1 could see no reason why I would be drawn into it, or why there would be any questions asked of me. After that there was another tele- | phone call 1 went into the Tourist | Camp in Washington, after my prints had been taken at Arl County Court House, and told Mrs. Par- | sons that I wanted to protect her if | possible from any ‘connection with the 'cuse. ‘That I thought that the wires in my office were tapped, and for her not to call the office and carry on any conversation relative to the afternoon in_question. Do you want me to go on from where I was, Mr. Vandoren? Q. Yes, if you will. Goes to Store Daily. A. I went to Taishoff's store where 1 do all of my buying. and where I do |go every day of the year. We don't nave very much more food in the house than we eat each day; as a consequence it neccssitates me going to the store | every da; | I would judge that it was about 20 | minutes past 5 when 1 got to Taish- ofT’s store. I don't think that I bought but & very few things. I asked him for | and with apologies he !handed me a doughnut box. He said that that was the only thing that he had. The sugar and greas> on the HOPES D €. THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1930.- OF CAMPBELL DEFENSE REST HERE box caused Mrs. Taishoff to remark that | |she doubted if Mrs. Campbell would | | want to use that to take a cake to any- | | body in. However, I took the box with me. I went from there a distance of about two or three city blocks to Mr. | Lee’s house. Turned over a note and check that 1 had collected from a| Mr. Morales of Fourteenth street south- eact on a busin:ss transaction for him. Mr. Morales had given me the check when I had made my first trip into | Washington on that morning—or Mrs. | Morales haa. 7 | " Mr. Lee vrote me a check for $25, | which he handed to me. I don't know {just how long I was at his place. I |do know that I didn't sit down. I | stood beside his desk. ~Mr. Lee was | scated at his desk. When I went in he had some pencil drawings of a building that l;neh‘wu figuring on build- ing, in front of him. | s S T went from there up Addison avenue | CamBbell’s gum WIS It to 2 H. Hamilton, defense ballistic expert, in | . at my office for a moment. Thcre Is & pay telephone in my office; you can only use it by dropping & nickel in the slof. And Mr. Norwood was there. I had shown a Miss Gertrude Presley, her mother and a friend some rooms | at my sister's house on the evening of | April the 10th. They were to come out | and 4,.and ask you to look at them and | on that evening and let me know. I|gee whether you recognize them. | say “rooms”: it was an apartment; they | 4. Right here (indicating) is what T were communicating rooms. They Were meant by “flame tint.” Yes, sir; that| e T A e e e Shht thir | s the an me know wha [ ctoaciiise tbker decision was. 1 asked Norwood if e | & Vs air. ¥ Would stick around for a while. He| @ Gan you state what it is? I sald that he would; that he would stay | A & recelpt for the electric light | as long as he could. | bulbs that I bought when I took Mrs. Identifies Check | Gamppell in on Saturcay morning. T : n was that? Campbell, there, 80 we can cateh this| S WAL Saturdsy v - You ferred just ®| Q was that the night after your 8go to a check glven You bY | oonversation with the Greens? 3 A. Yes. Q I show you a document not so| | far marked for identification and ask ask you if You | vou i you can say what it is? | 'A. That is the check I paid for the | lights with, that I made out to the| | Pctomac Electric Appliance Co. | 7' Q. Signed by you? A. Yes, Q. And dated? A. Dated April 12 pparent, the difference lies in the rifli | show the difference in measurement in The lower picture is a section of a lengthwise. Q. T show you defendant’s exhibit 1 for identification and know what it is? A. Yes, sir; that is the check Mr. Lee gave me: Q. Will you leok at the reverse of it and tell us whose signature, if you know, appears thereon? A. My own signature. . Did you cash that check? . Yes, tir, " O the morning of Apri the 1241 g ng o ‘Where? Mr. Vandoren. ‘WHIl the reporter mark this “Defendant’s Bt 17 ‘The witness, gave EA et A " Burke & Herbert, Alexandria, Va, | Piece in gold with w | . Vandoren IF the cours piease 1 (B0, MBSl Sedecmung that offer ‘this. 4 evidence. 3 | have th b Tor this M evidence. ready in evi- | 5 he had had it quite a long while: dence, Mr. Vandoren. Q s‘ngdm:zr:le:;n is dated when? Mr, Vandoren—It is marked for 3 pril 8. identification. I don't think I offered| Q Do you remember when it was it. - that you met with reference to the | ‘Mr. Callins—No objection. writing of that letter if there was a Mr. Vandoren—May I exhibit it to the meeting? sy | A t was on & Sunday. et Q@ Do you recall what date Sun- | e day was? A No: I do not. Mr. Vandoren (éxhibiting u;;:.he {m‘; —This is the check Mr. Lee also testified | a1 relative o yesterday, gentlemen, Mr. Lee | & T You fix it in any Beyr | identifying thereon s signature. 'And ;& It T 0o Mr. Campbell has just identified his sig- nature. And the cancellation shows as Letter iudicated thereon. Q. Well, compute it for us. By Mr. Vandoren: A. Sun was—the 6th; but I Q All right, proceed. couldn't say that s the Gth, Resumes Mis Testimony. B S i A. T asked Mr. Norwood: i, he would aHIE it hack a day beca 2 > stay at the office for & few minutes; that | *%ySURISYE | e it was on Sunday. 1 expected these people out, and 'if he | ‘G Dg you recall that now? would call me at my home if they Yes. showed up. With the purpose in mind . How about this other document? of being sure that he would be able 10| A That is the agreement of sale. I call up, 1 put a nickel on the corner | gated that the 5th, too, on Saturday. of the desk, which I always did if I was| 'Q Is that your signature on that? going home and expected & call from the | A Yes, sir. office, because it would not make any Q. Is this your signature on this letter | difference out there in the country, if | (indicating)? a man had $20 in h's pocket, if he didn't | A Yes, sir. That is Mr. Lee's sign have a nickel he couldn't use the phone. | ture there (indicating). 1 don't believe that I was at the office| Q. Turning to the reverse of Defend- more than two or three minutes. ant’s/ Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Campbell, I I went straight from there down two find certain handwriting which bears blocks to my home and entered the the date April ® at the top, and what house. Edwin was there reading out on | purports to be your signature at the | the porch. And as closely as I can re- | Eetln.\. Is it, in fact, your signature? | member, it was possibly 5 minutes or | A, Yes, sir. 10 minutes of 6. I want to say to you,| Q. Do you recall writing on that| gentlemen of the jury, that is conjecture, | memorandum? because I am going entirely on the fact | A. Does this have any bearing on it? that it would take me under ordinary Q. I don't know. circumstances, with no undue trafic,| A. No; I didn’t write this (indicating’ about 20 minutes to drive to Mr. Tai-| Q. What I am concerned with is th shoff’s store. The rest of the time is | writing right here (indicating). very easy for me to fix in my mind. A. Yes, sir. Mr. Green came oul I went back into the kitchen and said— . started to prepare dinner. Mrs. Camp- | Q. Do you recall the writing of that? | bell usually gets the quarter past 5 bus . Yes. | from Washington and gets home about Q. Was it on the day that the date | indicates? | 3 r. 20 minutes of 6. She was not home when I got there. She came In & few | minutes later. e Q. And it acknowledged a further | I had peeled some potatoes, and I amount to apply on deposit? | believe prepared the steak for cooking | A. Yes, sir. “This contract called for when a knock came on the dcor and |an entire cash ?aymznl to be made | Eddie said that there was a machine | within five days from the date of April out there. Called to me and said that 5, and that time was up on this date, there was some people out front. And April 9, and Mr. Green came out to | he was more or less disheveled from his | pay an additional amount because he day at school, I guess—anyway he got had not been able to arrange a loan—— out of sight and went back in the back Q. Did you then extend the time for part of the house. I answered the |the payment of the balance of the cash? door, and Mr. Green was there that I A. Yes, sir, from Thursday to Satur- had sold the house to on the preceding | day. Sund He came over and asked me | % Saturday, what date? . April 13. it uld get him the electric lights at the Potomac Electric Power Co. and | Mr. Vandoren—These were marked ve him the discount that I had spoken | yesterday, with the exception of the of when he first asked me to :z the | one which has just been marked for lights. I told him that I would be glad | identification, and I want to offer them, if the court please. to. And he had a list of the lights that X Mr. Collins—No objection. he wanted. He said he wanted the | frosted lights. “What do you mean, the | The court—They will be received. Identifies Exhibit. white lights?' Yes, he wanted the Mr. Vandoren—No. 2, gentlemen, is white frosted lights. “Don’'t you think | you would rather have the flame tint? | the sales slip lrurporun‘ to be that of the Potomac Electric Power Co., certain He said, “Well, I don’t know.” So the suiteh fn the hal to the dining room | there is on the right-hand side of the | jec totiing lows 30 per cent. the sum | hal, and lights the lights in the dining | "33 7o Thie ‘defendant a3 testificd room. ‘There is & fixture up there of | thatiins B refos to the flame tng five lights. I turned the switch on and | pe was talking about. lighted the lights for him to sce what | "pufs (68 RIUE o0 11 & the they looked like. He sald, yes, he liked | cpeck identified by the witness, drawn them very much, but he would want |, "5y 12 payable to the order of Mrs. Green to see them. So he called | potomac Electric Appliance Co., in the sum of $5.76, which corresponds with the amount shown on the sales slip. | Dated Back. | | t and | | M These three charts were presented today to the Campbell jury by Dr. Albert support of his contention that Herbert M. Campbell's revolver was not used to kill Mary Baker. The upper left picture is a cross section of the interior of the barrel of etical cross section of the weapon Hamilten Hamilton reconstructed this chart fram the to Mount Vernon avenue and stopped | markings he says he found an the bullets taken from the girl's body. As is ing (indicated by arrow). The figures the rifling of a cheap gun, such as the Campbell weagon, and a well rified pistol like that at the right. gun barrel designed to show the rifling —Star Stoff Photo. point where you suspended a few mo- ments ago, and go ahead? A. After I finished talking to th: telegraph company I called Mr. Mc- Lean on the telephone. I had a husi- ness transaction up with him for the past year as concerns the building o | an apartment house on the site where my office is, and it has necessitated my getting in touch with him on nu- merous occasions. When I called him I usually called him around 6:30 or quarter of 7 the evening. He works in the Depart- ment of Agriculture, goes home on the cars and has quite a long walk after he leaves the cars, and it has always been my knowledge that I could not get him on the phone before 6 o'clock. At about that juncture Mrs. Carap- bell called in, hurrying Eddie up with his bath and getting ready for this ped on me for not leaving the tele- phone glone and coming to dinr I had one more call to make, to Manoukian, and I made that call hgn I went to dinner. There had beeh so1 conversation between Ed- die and I, as I remember, between the conversation with Mr. McLean and Mr. Manoukian, as to reasons for his not getting ready earlier in the afterncon when he had' been home since 3 or 4 o'clock. 3 ‘ Takes Edwin to Meeling. ‘We had dinner and I told Mrs. Camp- bell that I would take Edwin up to the Scout meeting. I finished dinner, as near as I can remember, about 7 | o'clock, and I asked Mrs. Campbell if she would go in with us and leave Eddie by the Scout meeting and go to a show or a movie. She said, no, she had to bake a cake, and explained to me that that was whet she wanted with the cake box, that Sunday was Mrs, Goode's birthday and that she wanted to take a cake in the next morning, and for that reason she would haye to stay home and bake the cake. T went on outside, and when I went out Eddie was in his uniform and was 1o all appearances ready for the Scout meeting. I went on out and got into the machine and started the motor, and it seems that I sat there possibly 5 or 6 minutes—probably it was net nearly so long—and I got impatient and started blowing the horn, and the nouse with his Scout belt, sticking it in his pocket as he came out. He said he couldn't get it on. We left there and drove across the Highway Bridge straight out Four- teenth street. I remember distinctly elooking at the clock on the United States Savings Bank. I don't know why it is that we always look at clocks in different parts -of town very rapidly as we pess them, but I can name that one and the one on the Colorado Building and the one on R. P. Andrews’ on TRfmmm street as being clocks that T look at very regularly when I pass them, and it is very distinetly in 7 when I passed the corner of Four- teenth and U streets. We proceeded on up to Park road and turned west on Park road to the church. I don't know the name of the church; it is on the north side of ‘the street. The Scout meetings are held in the basement of this church. It was at a time in the cvening when the street was very crowded h machines, very probably from the fact that the Tivoli Theater is right on the corner, and bowling alleys and one thing and another. At any rate, 1 couldn’t gei the car to the curb, and I parked abreast. Several boys were standing in the doorway. You go down the steps to the vestibule, and several boys were standing there. I cut the motor and got out of the machine and went into the church, just inside the door; spoke to Mr. King and, as I remember, made the remark, “Better late than never,” or a remark similar to that. I am not at all sure about that, but it is my reccllection that I made that sort of a remark. I talked to him, I don't believe, more than a minute or two, and went back out and two or three of the boys were standing there talking and I heard one of them remark about that “good-look- ing Hudson” or some such remark. Went by Home of Smiths. T got into the car and drove over to Sixteenth street, drove out Sixteenth street to' Hamilton, drove east on Ham- ilton to 620, which is the home of Mr. and Mrs. Roy L. Smith, whom I have known for some time. It is also the home of Mrs. Marian Stewart, who testified yesterday. I reached there, as near as I can re- member, at about quarter of 8 or 10 minutes of 8, and stayed there until about $unrur of or 10 minutes of or Green, who was still out in the machine with some man that I don't e g o gl i A There is, next, defendantd exhibit No. 3, a letter signed by the witness, which' he has identified in the manner two of them came in the e:‘dn‘l sit down. We stood in the hall you have heard. ring ned were not there very long, beca 'y - The other document, likewise bea Receives Telegra: And about the time they wére leaving, the telephone rang, and I answered it. It was Norwood up at the office calling me to tell me that there was a telegram | at the Postal Telegraph office in Alex- | | andria, Va. After the Greens had left the house I called the Postal Telegraph and the message was read to me over the tele- that point, Mr. mu“x': 1 them oA The T e - date April 5, is the contract identi by the witness, containing his signature, and calling for the erit of the en- tire eash payment within five days, and cn the reverse, in his handwriting, ap- pears a notation under date of April 9, 1930, wherein is recited “Received of Henry A. Green a total of $30 deposit on account of the cash payment of $150 mentioned in the contract on the verse hereof, balance of $120 to be paid Bl!urdn&., April 12, 1930, Vi By My Vandor . y Mr. i Q Will you take wp, from the pfi‘-"mm;i ia | table, & it and maybe 9 o'clock. I am not at all posi- tive about the exact minute of my de- parture, I had taken a radio up there. As a side line I sell radios for Arthur F. Campbell in the town of Potomac. I have sold & number for him, and I took a radio up there on this night. Mr. Smith was upstairs in the bedroom, as was Mrs. Smith, ill. Mrs. Stewart was in another room, ill. I called up and asked Roy if he wanted the radio up | there or if he wanted it down in the living room. He sajd, “Put it down there.” It was a Fada radio. I took the Kolster radio they had on the table set, out and disconnected X de~ ma¢] and set % up. " i | Scout meeting, and, incidentaliy, hop- | Eddie came dut of the front door of | my mind that it was 20 minutes past| cided not to buy the radio, and they now have their first set back and the other set has been returned to the dis- tributor. I left there about 9 o'clock, drove over to Fifth street, down Fifth to what I believe is New Hampshire ave- nue, through New Hampshire avenue to Park road and over Park road to the church again. ‘We have been having a little difficulty in getting Edwin home under 12 or balf past 12 from these Soout mestings. I went there more as a means of check- ing up on him. When I got over to the church the church was dark. That is & one-way street, and I went down to Sixteenth street down to the next east-tound street. I am not sure what street that is, but I think it is Irving. I started driving up and down | Fourteenth street looking the deli- caiessens and in the dr stores, not caving the machine, simply looking in to see if T could see him from the car. 1 had heard him say that they often went down Fourteenth street and harangued the different merchaiits down there by going in and playing | pranks on them and one thing and {another. I didn't see anything of him. {1 drove down to Fourteenth and I | streets and called Mrs. Campbell on the telephone- and asked her if there was | enything she wanted from town. She aid, “1 don't know of anything par- feularly. You mighg bring some hot | bread if you want to.” i Visited Bakery, ’ | So I drove over to Schneider's bne:hy from that point, which is an the side of I street between Fourth and Fifth. I had been in the habit of | going there at it and getting hot bread for possibly the last year or year yand a half, and 1 went in and bought some bread, and the gentleman it | testified here - yesterday or day before yesterday, Mr. Fastnaught, is known to | | all of us as Mr. Charlie over there. He | 1s the night ‘clerk. After he had given me the bread | L Dappened to sec this cake box up | over the door on the shelf. There is an electric «clack that I have noticed often up there virtue of the fact that 1:" h'.u 8 bldck hand and a red hand that goes around, I presume, in seconds. A number of cake boxes Were up on this shelf, and I asked him if I could have one of them. He said, yes, 1 could.. He reached up and got one;’ but o found ‘it was pretty solled. 1t had up there for some time. He told that he would go into the store and get me one, which he did. He went into the retail store which ad- Jjoins the .bakery and got.a new box and brought it out and gave it to me. Again I'have to rely on what would be the most logical route for me to take home, and I think I am correct in it, that I went down Fourth street—I say I am correet in it, beeause whenever we go home from there we go the same route—acress D to Sixth, down Sixth to Maryland avenue, out Maryland avenue |.to Fourteenth street, down Fourteenth |'street to the Highway Bridge and over | the lower Alexandria road to Addison | avenue in Virginia Highlands. 1 reached home about 10 or quarter past 10. Mrs. Campbell and I had gone out into the kitchen and had eaten some of this hot bread and sat there and bed, and it was just a few minutes after that when n came in, and I ques- tioned him about the “apple sauce” he had been giving me about not being.able to get home under 12 or 12:30 at night; that I had gone past the church, and the church was dark, at'9:30 or before 9:30. I don't remember just what his answer was. It was more or less a chid- ing answey back at’'the way I had said it,to him. Didn't Ge Out Again. That is as nearly as I can remember what my movements were on the day of April 11. I was not in Washington between 5 and 6 o'clock. Of that I am positive. I wasn't there between 5:15 and 7 o'clock. I am equally as positive of that. Q. You arrived home on that night at what time did you say, Mr. Camphell? A. About 10 o'clock or a very few minutes after that. Q. After arriving at home did you go zul }Btel’ on that same night at any me? A. No, sir. » Q You remained in the home over ;flgl}n as usual until the following morn- ng? A. I did. Q. What did you do on the next day? | Not in detail, but in general, what | were your activities? | A. On the next morning I took Mrs. | Campbell in 10 her office, getting there | about 9 o'clock. I went down to the Potomac Electric Appliance Co., which | is in the same building with the Poto- | mac Electric Power Co,, and purchased | the globes for Mr. Green. I made that purchase, I would say, about 9:15. The | purpose, of course, in purchasing them at the Potomac Electric Appliance Co. was because of the great amount of dis- count which could be saved through Mrs. Campbell's working for the com- pany. Q Through the balance of the day, did you go about your regular duties' * k ko | | Never Knew Mary Baker. I want to ask you cate oflc;lly er Q. whether you ever knew Mary A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Did you ever meet her? A. I have never met her. Q. So far as you know, have you ever seen her? A. I have never seen her nor have I ever known any one who has spoken of her, Q. Do you know what kind of a car she had? A, No, sir. Q. So far as you know, have you ever seen her automobile? A. No, I have not—and I would like to explain that hesitancy by saying that when they took my palm-| its there at the Arlington County rt House, on July 4, the investigators immediately went over toward the jail, where the car was parked. Q. Some car was parked which you saw at that time? A. Yes, sir. I don't know whether it was Mary Baker's car or not. Q. Were you in the neighborhood of Sixteenth and B strcets northwest at 10 minutes of 6 or at any time from 20 minutes of 6 until, we will say, 6:30? A. No, sir; I was not. Q. On the afternoon of April 11? A. 1 was not. ‘Were in any Ford would be Sixteenth street if it were ez~ car down talked a few minutes, and then gone to | tended through, and on the north side of B street facing west? A. I have never been in one of the new Fords of any description, belonging to_anybody. Q. Did you assault a woman down at that point? A. No, sir, Q. Did you take part in any assault on any woman down there? A. I did not. Q. Did you ever choke any woman, Mary Baker or anybody else? A. No, sir. Q. Did ,\;;7:’ ever shoot Mary Baker or A. 3 Q. Do you know anything about what the witnesses testified at that point? A. I don't know anything about it. ® kK Q. You did, in fact, know Herman Barrere? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long had you known him? A. I had not known Barrere well or intimately at all. He had come in to my office, I guess on possibly two or three occasions, no wore than that. Last Christmas he came down to the house, down to my home, and said that his father was very ill—he is an old man—and asked me if I nad any wine. I told him that I did. He asked me if I would give him some for his father, that he wanted to make him a Rresem. of it for Christmas, and I gave im some. That was the only time up until the time he came to paint the house that he was ever inside of my home. Q. When was it that he cane to paint your house? A. He started on April.12. A Then I come to the point where I turned the gun over. I had gone into my office—I am skipping a point there. A reporter came out ta_my office o‘:: don't know what to think.” I “Barrere has an iron-clad alibi that I don’t believe anybody can break.” He said, “Well, that's interesting He says, “Miss Heiner and Mrs. glul'fl.!un | Smith, the same lady who has said that he knew Mary Baker, say that Barrere was with them on that afternoon.” Being under .the impression that I was aiding the police at that time I undertook to find out whether the alibi was true or untrue. I have sold quite & bit of property for Miss Heiner. I knoWw that Barrere has lived there for quite a long while. And very shartly after that, on a Sunday, Miss Heiner called me 'on the phone and asked me if T would talk to Mrs. Barrere, Her- man Barrere's wife; Mr. and Mrs. Loen Barrere of Richmond, his brother and sister-in-law, and Miss Heiner, if they came over. I told her I would. I hung up the phone and called the Arlington County court house. Told em that this consultation was going o take place and that I didn’t know whether Barrere was going to be with them or not, but that I imagined that h2_might be. The call went from there, I learned later, to the traffic policeman, Ray Cobean, who was on duty at Columbia pike and Mount Vernon avenue. A reporter went from the court house down to let him know that this meeting was going to take place, and accom- panied him up to my office. ‘While I was waiting for them ‘o come over I went down to my home, opened the top drawer of my chiffonier, where I have had this gun ever since I bought it in 1926, put the gun in my hip pock- et, went out and got in the automobile and went back up to the office. Officer Cobean came up just about th;t hTe ‘;nd came into the office. e out of my ket at that time in tg:nviev of both ‘?foc them— they saw the gun—and put it in the top drawer of my desk. Miss Heiner and the two Mrs. Bar- reres and Mr, Barrere came out & short while after that and the conversation of course was immediately launched on Barrere's alibl. Still with the idea that | I was working with the police, I started to attack the alibl by telling them that | Barrere was in my place at that time. That he had come there to sign the contract in the late afternoon and that he was there until late in the evening. Miss Heiner said that she may be—it may be that she was mistaken about ;he date that she thought he was with er. The gun laid in the desk drawer from that time until the 5th of June. This was about the 15th of May, as nearly as |1 can recall, that this meeting took | place. The gun was in there for three weeks, I am not real sure whether it was the 5th or 6th of June that I went up to my office and opened the desk drawer and was getting some papers out. In the meantime the newspaper men were there practically every minute that thev could ind me. They would play around on the miniature golf course and at the end of each game they would come over and talk some more about the Mary nllker ml:‘rder Ieulse " n each article that they wrote on this alibi of Barrere‘n—onythe article of the gloves they had given a' great deal of space to the mention of this :“l?:..m" golf course that I had just u / Took Gun to Court House. Whatever possessed me to take the | {gun out of the desk drawer and take it over to the court house on that day | 1 don't know. When I tgok the papers out of the drawer I saw the gun lying there. And it otcurred to me that there was an opportunity for another good story. They had made the propo- sition to me right straight along that anything that I would give them in connection with the Mary Baker mur- der case they would see that I got plenty of publicity on the miniature golf course, and insisted each time that tha' was advertising that couldn't be bought. I took the gun out and wrapped it up in a piece of newspaper and decided that I would take it over to the court house. After I decided it I didn't stop to think about it. I didn't have even the remotest idea that I was letting my- self in for any such a mess as I got into over it. I wrapped the gun in a news- paper and went over to the court house. Up until that time shere was no thought in my mind about the fantas- tic story that I told about the man with the wart on his nose. It was given birth to on the trip between my office and Mr. Fields' office. There was no planning of the story. It simply came into my head, and I went over and h';ndod him the gun and told him that story. * % ¥ x Commonwealth Attorney Gloth says, “Well, Herble, you can see what a bad fix you would be in if we did not know you as well as we do. I said, “Yes; I guess I would, if this is the gun that killed Mary Baker.” So they laughed. On the 4th of July—no; shortly after the gun had been sent back frem the Bureau of Standards, Mr. Hardy of the Department of Justice came to my home | one night and asked if I would go up | to the Department of Justice; they | wanted to talk to us. We went up there and they asked me about the gloves and asked me about the gun. I repeated the lies that I had told about both, in detail, but I did not have any idea at ;‘hnfinm. that the story was not be- eved. * ok ok X On the night that Barrere was ar- rested in Montreal a rter came out and said, “Mr. Campbell, they have got Barrere.” I said, “Is that so?” ‘“Yes: they have got him and he has confessed, a_word-for-word confession.” I said, “It is no more than I ex- pected.” |had substituted any e A. William C. Gloth. back here, and on Monday, July 20, I was instructed to be at the Arlington County Court House at 8 o'clock. I was there. I was not called into the room where Barrere was until 1 o'clock. I was called in. Barrere greeted me very cordially, and I greeted him. I think some remark was made about the in- tense heat, and there was no further conversation between us, but a number of witnesses were brought in. They looked at each of us and then I was excused; I was told to go outside, * ok ok ok At 4 o'clock—I waited outside during this time—I was excused and told to come back at 9 o'clock that night, which I did. I went home anc ate my dinner and came back and went into the commonwealth’s attorney's office in the court house. Mr. Kelly and Mr, Gloth were there and Sheriff Fields. Mr. Kelly asked me to detail again my movements on the afternoon of April 11. T attempted to do so. They were just as false, however, as the first story I had given them, because I still did not know where I was except that I had left Mrs. Parsons at 2100 Nine- teenth street at 5 o'clock and that I had taken Edwin to the Scout meeting. Those were the only two things that were included in every story that I gave concerning the alibi. * * * * Mr. Gloth asked me if I realized I was not going home that mght. I said, “I don’t presume I am.” He says, “I know you are not. You are under arrest for murder.” I said, “All right.” Then they started grilling me. When I say “they” I am referring to Com- monwealth Attorney Gloth and Mr. Flelds. Mr. Fields said, “Herbert, I sent you home at 4 o'clock this after- noon'in order to give you an oppor- tunity to blow your brains out. I don't know why you didn't do it. We didn't expect you back here this eve- ning.” Denied Killing Girl, I said, “I didn't have any reason to blow my brains out. I had done nothing to blow my brains out for.” He sald, “You know you killed a girl. You choked her and you shot her and you dumped her body in the culvert.” I said, “No, I never killed Mary Baker; I never knew Mary Baker, have R: idea who she was or anything about He said, “Well, I doubt whether you know whether you killed her or not, beoause I think you are insane; and the best thing for us to do is to send for a doctor down at Richmond and have him come up here and let you plead insanity.” I said, “I don’t know but what I agree with you that I have acted like an idiot in some phases of this thing, but throughout the entire case my iime interest has been in trying to Ip in what way I could in appre- hending th> man who not only I thought was guilty, but that each one ©of you have thought was guilty; and the reasons that I have for thinking that he was guilty are because of the stories that have been told from sources other than mpyself.” B Detective Talley stayed there with imz and he said, “Herbert, I know you didn’t have anything to do with the | killing of this girl, but you know who |did kill her. Come cn and get it off your chest, and you will feel a whole lot better after you get it off.” I said, “Mr. Talley, I can’t get any- thing more off my chest. I don't kno who killed Mary Baker; I don't know any more than you do who killed Mary Baker.” He said, “Well, you are shielding You are shielding somebody somebody. in this case. I know you are. Not Shielding Anybody. I said, “I am not shielding anybody. I am in too tight a place to shield any- {body. If I knew who killed Mary Baker I would gladly tell you. I am in jall.” | “On the following day Mr. Gloth sent for me to be brought over to his office. He sald, “Herbert, I am going to give. you another chance. We ureml'nm‘ to send this gun to Ool. Goddard out at the Northwestern University.” I said, “I wish you would send it to somebody and have it examined, be- cause that gun didn't kill Mary Baker. It didn't figure in it.” I expressed my gratitude to him. The n was sent out, so far as I know, to cl. Goddard, and I was sent back over to jail. * ok ok x CROSS-EXAMINATION. By Mr. Collins: Q. I suppose if you had done it you | would have answered yes to Mr. Van- | doren, would you not? A. If I had I would probably have done just what Sheriff Fields suggested. Q. Answer my question. If you had done it you would have probably answered yes to Mr. Vandoren, would you not? A. I would very probably have an- swered no. Q. As I understood you, Mr. Campbell, the first time that you became suspicious of the fact that your story was not going over, as you put it, was when you talked to Sheriff Fields at the Court House; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was that, approximately? A. On July 4, I feel sure, Mr. Coilins. Q. I belicve it was on either June 6§ or June 6 that you said you turned over the gun? A. Yes, sir. Q. It was either July 3 or 4 that you realized that your story was not going over; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And you interrogated Sheriff Flelds in connection therewith; is that right? A. Yes. ) Q. What did you mean when you told the jury that immediately when you turned the Barrere gun over you knew that it had not gone over? A. I said I knew that the story had not gone over. I didn't know any sus- picions had attached to me because tho story had not been accepted. Q. Campbell, tell the jury where you got the description of this man that you gave—the color of his hair, the wart on his nose, the color of his eyes, the color of his socks, the type of suit and the shoes that you admired. A. Mr. Collins, that story was made up just as rapidly as you just spoke - to me, out of my mind. Q. You made up your mind in your office §9 turn the gun over? es. Expected Another Story. Q. What else did you make up your mind to do at that point? A. I was not in the office on that occasion long enough to give it any thought. I simply unlocked the door and went in and picked up this paper and when I opened the top drawer the gun was in there and I picked up and put it in my pocket. Q. And what else were you going to do? A. The thought in my mind was that I would get another good story for the golf course. Q. Did you have any thought as to the type of stary you were going to get? A, did not. A. I had no idea that the killed Mary Baker was the gun I was taking over—that the gun I over there to turn in would be said to be the gun that killed Mary Baker. Accuses Gloth. Q. Who did you intend to in ridgeer e Q Do sou now, believe that? ‘of what | some . You honestiy believe c.mmuum