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GOSLAVIA SPLT BY STATECONTRO Strong Central Government and Autonomous Rule Both Have Backers. BY ALBERT H. PUTNEY. By Cable to The Star and Chicago Daily BELGRADE, Jugoslavia, July 7.— Polftical parties In the kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (Ju- goslavia) are divided along comsti- tutional, economic, religlous and racial lines, but the most important political issue is between the sup- vorters of a strong central govern- ment and those who favor a large degree of autonomy and self-govern- ment for the different provinces in- cluded within the kingdom. This political Issue reminds one of the states’ rights question which played 80 prominent a part of the early political history of the United States. In this connection it is interesting to note how one political designation is used by the Jugoslavs with a meaning exactly opposite to that which it formerly had in the United States. Tho term federalist was used in the United States to designate the supporter of a strong central govern- ment; in the kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and_Slovenes it is used to designate the opponents of a strong centralized government, i This legislative body in the king- dom of the Serbs, Croats and Slov- enes, known as the skuptshina, is composed of 313 members. As ‘a result of the elections held on March 18, 1823, the representation of the difterent political parties in the skuptshina is as follows: No. of members. 100 ‘mosleins an mox, S n soclalists of peopler Rumunian . Montenegrin Vacancies . Total... Government's Hold Very Weak. The sole governmental party fs the radical party of which Prime Minis- ter Mikola Pashitch has long been the recognized leader. All the ministers are members of this party. It is said that the government can count at any time on the support of the Macedonian mosiems, but even with the extra fourteen votes the government is still so far short of a majority in the skuptshina that it can continue in power only through the tacit acqui- escence, or total lack of unity, of the opposition. Tn the previous skuptshina an al- llance of the democrats with the radi- cals gave the ministry a majority, but this alliance is now, at least tempo- rarily, dissolved. The radicals are a Serbian party, and the chief support- ers of a strongly centralized govern- ment. The name “radical” is mis- leading, a® in reality it is one of the most conservative parties in the king- dom. The chief opposition is the Raditch Croatian-peasant party, which is fed- eralist and opposed to'a strong cen- tral government. It also supports rad- ical economic principles. Its seventy members in the skuptshina come mostly from Croatia, but a few are from Dalmatia and Slavonia. During the last skuptshina the representa- tives of this party refused to attend the sessions in order to avold the necessity of swearing alleglance to the constitution of 1921. The twenty-one representatives of the Christian socialist or popular arty are all Sloveness. This party s clerical and is controlled by the Roman Catholic Church. It is federal- ist, but not so strongly so as the Ra- ditch Croatian-peasant party. Its economic principles are conservative | or moderate. The recognized leader is M. Koroshec. Agrarians and Democrats. The ten representatives of the agrarfans are from scattered dis- although most of them come | Serbia. This party is closely ted with the Raditch party, and holds similar economic views. The democratic party was founded by persons who wished to create an organization that would be national in its character rather than provin- | cfal or racial. Such a party would be a good thing for the kingdom if its attitude were practicable. In reality, what it does is to try, to ignore the greatest political issue’in which every one {s interested. The party is| mainly Serblan, although its member- | ship includes some Croats and a few | Slovenes. Its_representatives come | from Serbia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Sla- vonia and Macedonia. This party was formerly a governmental party in coalition with the radicals; it is now | in the opposition, but is much fur- | ther away in ite principles from the | Raditch-peasant party than it is from | the radicals. The impossibility of any party's succassfully evading the question be- | tween centralization and federation own by the division of the:dem- ooratic party into two factions, led by Davinovitch and by Pribichevitch. The former lean toward &utonomy for the different subdivisions of the | kingdom, while the latter support a greater degree of centralization. H One Montenegrin in Protest. The thirty-two moslems are often classed together, but in reality th aro divided fnto two distinet parti The fourteen from Macedonia are Turks, who nevertheless are inclined 1o support the government. The | cighteen from Bosnia are Serblan by | descent, but are federalists and defi- | nitely in the opposition, at least unti # compromise is reached on the ques. tion of federalization or centraliza- tion. The leader of the Bosnlan mosiems is Dr. Spaho. The elght German members come | from territory which formed part of | Hungary before the war—Slavonia und the Banat. i The one member of the skuptshina who is classified as a “Montenegrin” | i a representative of the minority in | that region, who are still opposed to the incorporation of the old kingdom of Montenegro into the new kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. | ‘The great majority of the Monte- negrins, however, appear well satis- fled with their union with the Serb- fans, with whom they are so closely connected by the ties of a_common race, language, religion and histor- ical traditions. TURKS AND ALLIES TO CONFER TODA To Resume Debate on Near East Issues After Deadlock in Yesterday's Parley. DBy the Associated Press. LAUSANNE, July 7.—After an un- interrupted six-hour struggle the al- lied chiefs and Ismet Pasha scpa- rated tonight to meet again tomor- row for discussion of the unsettled problems of the near east peace con- ference. The only announcement made was that nothing definito was concluded at today's debate which will be hopefully resumed Sunday. Tho deliberations turned on all three of the outstanding questions which have been holding up the signing of peace, namely: the Otto- man debt, concessions and the evac- uation of Constantinople. —_— It is not what you get out of life. ‘But what you give, that makes you happy. American C anoes: Now Deck Yellow Waters of Tiber By the Assoctated Press. ROME, July 7.<The American Ipdian cance, whish for centuri has plied only the streams and lakes of the North American con- tinent, has at last found fts way to the classic “yellow Tiber.” Ca- noeing has become a favorite riv- er sport of the Romans. On Sun- day a dozen or more of the frail Indian ‘craft can beé seen in the yellow waters ~gliding along the shores in ‘company with sKifte shells, sculls and motor boats. ' The graceful Indian water con- veyance has become so popular that an Italian fiym has com- menced the mafiufacture of them. They took several American noes' as models and' then began turning them -out by the scor A canoe club also has been o ganized, and many America have joined. Paddling to the per- fection of the Indians has not yet been achieved. The Romans make vain efforts to keep the ca- noe headed stral but a change of paddle is necessary after ev- ery few strokes. BRTISHHAVE RUAR EY, SAYS HARDEN Cuno Would Face Crisis if London Backs Paris De- mand to End Resistance. BY MAXIMILIAN HARDEN, Germany's Foremost Publiciat. By Cable to The Star. BERLIN, July 7.—Germany awaits with anxiety the result of the Lon- don-Paris negotlations. Should Bald- win ‘and his associates indorse the French dematid that the Ruhr policy of passive resistance be abandoned forthwith it would place that ques- tion squarely up to Cuno and his own particular advisers. Would the Berlin government yvield to this superior pressure? I do not know. At the present moment the government is intimidated by the monarchic nationalist’s “leagues, whose number and following steadily is increasing and whose terroristic thyeats are growing louder every day. The aim of these “leagues” is the restoration of the German monarchy. Thelr methods are murder and_the use of artillery against cities. They openly insist that passive resistance has proved a failure. Former Lieut. Schlagter, who was shot by the French after having been convicted of sabotage, is now being paraded as a great national hero. Blast Follows Eulogy. It must be remembered that three days after Gen. Ludendorf had initi- ated a movement to erect monu- ment to the memory of Schlagter, and the Bavarian premier, in his ad- dress to the diet, had declared him a martyr to his country, the bridge between Duisburg and ' Rheinhauser was blown up and Belglan soldiers were Killed. The various speeches and acts of the leaders of the “league: have caused the government and parlia- ment to believe that a surrender in the Ruhr at this time would mean the initiation of a bloody civil war throughout Germany, with fighting almost universal. The whole situation emphasizes that the idea of a democratic repub- lic is not yet firmly rooted in Ger- many. The battle to be waged, if the “leagues” fiually dominate, will be with obsolete weapons on one side and Frauce's latest and most modern on the other, which would, of course, mean the destruction of Germany's most important. industrial _district, because, If the present resistance is continued, France and Belgium never Will_consent to relinquish their grip on the Ruhr. Sound Despite War. Germany came through the war weakened, it is true, but sound to the core after the militarists had been driven from power. Now she is confronted with the danger of de- stroying herself through her fatlure 1o recognize the material and moral forces which must be taken into con- sideration in forcing her way back !into the front rank of nations. The recent letter of the.Pope has not aided the situation very much. The fact that ils meaning was mis- construed in many quarters and that it was necessary for the Vatican to issue three separate and distinct in- terpretations and . explanations of what was intended robbed it of most of_the hoped-for effect. Naturally it must be expected that the Pope would do what he could to assist Germany at the present time because it now is ruled by the Cath- olic party, while a papal nuncio has been sent to Rome. But he also has been anxious to heal the misunder- tanding between France and the ratican, £o that suggestions of fa- voritism do net hold. What Polncare Wants, The Poincare cabfnet. has set its own reparations at twenty-six billion gold marks, provided there is a can- Celiation of interallied debts, but it will return to “invisible occupancy if Germany does not renounce abso- lutely all passive resistance in the Ruhr. Even though this should be done the question of guarantees must come up. - “OR¥ance probably will demand the separation of the Rhineland from Prussia and creation of a demilita ized federal state. Germany naturally must regard such a demand as an invasion of her rights of sovereignty. Parls, therefore, sees little likelthood of an early change in the situation unless she can secure hearty back- ing and co-operation from London. MIRACLES REPORTED AT SCOTTISH SHRINE Thousands of Devout Visiting Miniature Loudres Every Sunday. By the Associated Pre LONDON, July 7.—The obscure lit- tle Scottish mining village of Carfin, which slept - for many centuries among the thrifty towns of old Lan- arkehire, has .suddenly become n minfature Loudres to . which daily go thousahds of devout Christians [ in search of the same bléssings that bring pllgrims to Loudres. Tho fame of this village comes from the grotto. built there a vear ago adjoining the Catholle church in imitation of the shrine Loudres. To this grotto the village people went to offer prayers asking that the shrine be given the powers which were bestowed upbn its counterpart in_Fra . S he first miracle said to have been wrought is the cure of an old Lan- arkehire woman who hobbled to the shrine with the aid of crutches but who was able to leave her sticks Dbefore the altar. and. betake herselt home without assistance. The village sees thousands of vis- itors daily. On a recent Sunday 50,000 persons visited the shrine in a great procession. —_— The Swiss constitute that curious anomaly of a nation without a language, and in this they are alone among all the peoples of the world. The offi- al languages are German, Frenoh d -Italian, ‘these three being the recognized “mother tongue” of the majority of the inhabitants. > BRITISH INQUIREES OVER RUHR SCORED Why Need Any One Pretend Not to-Know French Aims, ‘Is Tardieu’s Position, BY ANDRE TARDIEU, Former French High Commissioner te the United States. By, Cable ,to The Star. PARIS, July 7.—Walting, conversa- tion, newspaper recrimination, un- easiness, fluctuation of exchange, gen- eral obscurity everywhere—that is the situation existing in Paris and London today. Probably it will be & long time before we get out of the rut. . Great Britain has asked Premler Poincare to explain his Ruhr policies. English papers complain sharply be- cause the French premler delayed his reply. Yet the questions were very. badly put. The Poincare policy has been explained many times. It has not been changed. What is the use of anybody pre- tending not to know that all France wants is to compel Germany to pay her just debts. Since 1920 we have Dbeen trying this. . Now we are in the Ruhr to_collect and all the notes in the world will not make that fact any clearer. Blames Weak Methods. Considering this, what is the rea- son for the unfriendly British press attitude? Whence come all these sudden tension periods? My opinion is that it is not due to any real un- easiness concerning France but is due to the tnextricably confused situation that has resulted from the weak and ineffectual French methods. When Essen was occupied the Eng- lish stood by, disapproving but not interfering. They rather hoped France would succeed in her adven- ture. But it failed because stern methods were not used. The Opposi- tion of Germany has not been met and today, months after the initial occupation, nothing has been accom- plished. Today thers are neither political nor economic results to show for what has been done. Germany still resii She orgunizes assassination and sal tage. Poincare's last speech shows we have received since the occupation of the Ruhr only 25 per cent of the amount of coal and coke the same reglon furnished during the same months of 1922. Even this result does not represent the fruits of the occu- pancy, but is the surplus of materials on hand when the Franco-Belglan armies marched in. Leave Rukr When Paid. T won't repeat what I already have stated concerning the c of our errors. It is not France's aims but the result of her methods that bothers England. Poincare says when we are paid we will leave the Ruhr. The English want to know when that will be. But nobody can answer that last question as things now are. It is the natural conclusion that the Franco-British negotlations can only become frank and natural when the Rubr becomes a source of payment of reparations. Until then Poincare can not agree to evacuate while England cannot approve the occupation which scems endless. Before any agreement in the Ruhr is possible many things must take place, including a change of policy on the part of France. So all ‘we can do is to content ourselves in patience and wait. NORWEGIAN FIRM GETS HUGE RIGHTS IN RUSSIA 11,000 Square Miles of Territory Envolved in Development Proj- ect Soon to Begin. By the Associated Press. CHRISTIANIA, July 7.—Russla has granted a concession to a Norwegian industrial conocern involving 29,000, 000 “maal,” or roughly 11,000 square miles of territory, in the Onega dis. trict of northwestern Russla, accord- Ing to an announcement made here today. The development work will be begun immediately, it was stated. AU Leathers Including White Buck- skin Baldwin in Tight Place Trying To Reconcile Paris and Berlin British Premisr Would Avert Break With France, But.Collapse of Germany Seen Dangeously Near. By: A. @, GARDINER. England’s Greatest Liberal Editor, By Cable to The Star. 3 LONDON, July 7.—England would. at any cost, avold an open break with Franve. That is why no criticism af French policy or French fallure to be frank made by &ny responsible o@elll. It {s notorious that the delay in’ replying to Chancellor Cuno's last note is gravely complicating the pros- pects of staving. off the complete collapse of central Europe. But the Baldwin' government 'is anxious .to reach an agreement, if possible, and no effort is being spared to preserve at least an' outward' semblance of tranquility. Liberal leaders just returned from Germany in: that country is ap- proaching dissolution. The mark has collapsed to a fantastic level. The outlook In the Ruhr and in South Germany {8 very bad. Disintegration of Germany, of course, means the final disappegrance of any reparations but the French seem to ‘think this is more than balanced by indirect gains which would come from French over- lordship of the fragments of the Ger- man empire. British Have Big Stakes. But_reparations are not exclusive- ly a French concern. Britain has a very deep interest in this subject She has everything to lose and noth- ing to gain_ through the splitting of Germany. Such a catastrophe would bedevil all Europe for generations. All this is realized in government circles. The gravest fears are felt for the future. On the one hand there is the most earnest desire not to break with France and on the other a rap- idly strengthening determination that England can have no part or lot in Poincare's policies. So far Poincare refuses to make conce: . The British forces at Cologne now completely cut off from Germany and are little more than ho: in the ROBS ROOM WHERE WILHELM | DIED German Thief Takes Silver Com- munion Service and Other Mementos. By the Associated Press. BERLIN, July 7.—Even the anzient death chamber of Wilhelm I, in the old imperial palace on Unten den Linden, hae not proved immune from the wave of thisvery now sweeping over Berlin. A thief broke into the room the other night by smashing a window and escaped with a number of valu able mementoes, among which was a gold-plated silver communion serv. ice, including the flagon, goblet and plate. Among other things tuken were an_oil painting of Wilhelm's _sister- in-law, the late. Queen Elizabeth of Prussia; a golden hilted dagger set with sticks, and bronze broken frame of a large mirror. The incident brought to light how little this pulace is known to the people of Berlin. The police reporter, who was covering the robbery, was obliged to walit outside the building from the for permission to enter, utilizing the ! time by trying an experiment with passers-by. Out of nine_ persons whom he asked where the Palace of Wilhelm I was, only one actually knew, Four of the people questioned were forelgners. The old palace lies just opposite the main buildings of the University of Berlin and a short distance from | erial castle. The castle | the former im| overshadows the modest palace great- lv., and is often mistaken for the alace itself. inden, in a building also recently looted, Is the famous corner window from which the elder Wilhelm used to watch his crack troops Rgoose step to guard mount every afternoon. Many Americans and other foreigne were among the crowds which gat] ered outside daily in those times to catch & glimpse of the old emperor standing at the window. S;m, Inc. 931 Pa. Ave. N.W. ris, several costly walking | Just oft Unten den| hands of France. The long anticipated French sta ment of uue; continues misain Prime Minister Baldwin has asked for it.' There have been some ‘‘conversa- tions” but #o far no writte: ponse. We are placed in a humiliating posi- tion as a result. Fight to Comtrol Ajr. The collateral fact which throws & afsquieting light on the situation is the competition now frankly begun in_construction of airplanes. ng- land’s reply to the enormous suprem- acy 'which France enjoys in the air, is accepted by ail parties as showing an ingention to furnish that security which the position of London de- mands. It also is a hint intended to convey a desire for a firm under- standing in regard to the alr, but the only response o far from the French press is the claim that the air su. premacy, which France now has, is due her as a counterpoise to her weakened naval status under the terms of the Washington treaty. It seems almost certain that the months of negotiation have been fu- tlle and that a joint reply to Ger- many cannot be arranged. Should this prove true It would seem impos- sible for Baldwin longer to continue silent. He will be compelled to re- ply to Germany that her proposals seem sufficlent to assure acceptance, especially that part which would sub- mit reparations to an impartial tri- bunal. Does Not Lack Courage. No one can say, however, how far he will go. He is not lacking cour- age, but with the liberals and labor- ites pressing for peace at any price it ‘will require courage to assume a bold front. While awalting the development of the great international drama the at- tention of the public has been di- verted to the courts at Wimbledon | where the brilllant French woman, Mile. Lenglen, and the Americans like Johnaton, Richards and Hunter have {been revealing new potentialities of the game unlike anything English players heretofore have explored. |REUTERS BUY MODERN LONDON OFFICE BUILDING Great News Service Soon to Desert Picturesque Old Jewry | Headquarters. By the Associated Press. LONDON, July 7.—The announce- ment that Reuters have acquired a | great modern office bullding on the | embankment, and soon would trans- | fer there the main network of their !world-wma news activities now radi- ating from the group of quaint old j buildings, Nos. 23, 24, 5 Old Jewry, in the y, tolls another change in London's famous old newspaper landmarks. | oOld Jew described by historians |as the center of medieval London, at {one time contained the palace occu- pled by King Richard TII, and the bullding at 24, Old Jewry, advertised more than one hundred years ago {as & “comfortable and desirable | dwelling-house with garden,” has been the very heart of Reuters for many years. From the anclent mansion, with | its low-pitched ceilings, steep stair- cases, and thick outer walls, a con- tant stream of news, gathered from he remotest corners of the earth, is sent flowing back to the ‘outside world. Under the reorganization complet- ed by Sir Roderick Jones, the present chairman and managing director of tho agency. Reuters’ head office has been expanded to fourteen depart- ments and branches, requiring grea 1y eahrled facilities for the agency's work. ASK NEW AGREEMENT. BELGRADE, July 7.—The Serbian representative at Sofia has been in- structed to inform the Bulgarian gov- ernment that, in agresment with its colleagues of the littie entente, the Belgrade cabinet is disposed to re. relations with Bulgari All Sizes All Widths. " —the Real Quality Shoe Event of the Year— DON’T MISS THIS Annual Sale of All HESS LOW SHOES The sale is on. All of our patrons will year” opportunity to secure ESS SHO! reet this “once-cach- S at rices greatly reduced and much lower than their ACTUAL WORTH. This event will a $8, $8.50 and $9 Shoes peal to all who OPPORTUNITY to ECONOMI $7 and $7.50 $6.85: ag})zl:eciate good $10, $10.50 and $11 Shoes $12; $12.50 and $13 Shoes shoes and the Ke, *9 You are offered an unrestricted choice of any low shoe in the house at these prices. Consider the fact that there are all sizes and widths, as well as any model that is made for either style or comfort, and you have a fair idea of what we are offering in this sale. SABOTAGE DEFENSE INRUHR, SAYS GUNO Excitement of Tortured Peo- ple, Chancellor Tells Papal Nuncio. By the Associated Press. BERLIN, July 7.—"“Sabotage in the Ruhr can be explained as growing out of the excitement of a tortured people and as a questionable attempt at self-defense,” is the opinion which Chancellor Cuno’{s reported semi- officlally to havé made known to Mgr. Pacelll, the papal nunclo, in their closing conference last night. The words are contained in a semi- official communique which announces that the nuncio presented fully the Pope’s views with regard to sabotage in the occupled areas of Germany. The communique adds that the fed- eral government “agrees- with the holy see, however, in condemning every oriminal use of force.” Mgr. Pacelll is reported to be pre- paring to return immediately to his residence, in Munich. The _result of his intercessions with the German government, it is said, will be transmitted through him to the Pope in a formal declaration re- garding sabotage. It is officlally stated that nothing is known here of two notes whica Paris reports say France and Belglum scut to Berlin, demanding of the German government formal condemnation of certain acts of sabotage in tie Huhr and threatening to withdrax their ambassadors at Berlin in case of non- compliance. TAKES KRASSIN’S PLACE. Christian Rakovsky at Head of Soviet London Mission. By the Associated Pre MOSCOW,_July. THent ot Christian R ceed Leonid Krassin as head of the Russlan soviet delegation in London is announced. M. Rakovsky was formerly presi- dent of the Ukrain! republic. Pennsylvania Avenue SPECIAL ... SPECIAL years Shirts—Sports and many new f Sizes 12% to 1 SPECIAL with back. Sizes 24 SPECIAL ..... and Khaki, SPECIAL ..... Boys’ Furnishings tached models — plain Blue, Gray, Green, Tan, Heliotrope Nainsook Union Suits ; ma(_le the elastic webbing in Sport Blouses—fancy stripes Tan and White —sizes 6 to 16 years. PRINCE AND WIFE ' | ROBBED IN PALACE | Employes Beat and Drug Pair in | Bedroom and Escape With | Jewels of Great Value. | By the Associated Press. ROME, July 7.—A bold robbery, with a prince and princess as the victims, | was carried out here today. Taking advantage of their position in the pal- ace household, a waiter and a chauffeur early this morning overpowered Prince Carlo Glustiniani Bandini and his wife, Princess Maria, drugged them and made away with jewels and money valued at 2,000,000 lire. The police are searching tor Marino Guagnelll of Fazenda de Sao, Brazil, and Alfredo Cluchi of Gallese; aly. It was 2 o'clock thls morning when the two men, after making sure that the others of the household were asleep, covered thelr faces with masks, cut the telephone wires and entered the bed- room of the prince and princess, whom | they attempted to drug with anesthet- iclng masks. The sleepers awoke and tried to summon aid, whereupon they were beaten and drugged by force. The | thieves then took their keys, opened the safe and removed all the jewels, in- cluding a historic diadem which once belonged to Queen Hortense of Holland, |and 20,000 lire kept for current ex- penses. They made their escape after | locking the bedroom. {WOMEN IN RIDING ATTIRE | |DE TROP ON PARIS STREET| | By the Associated Press. PARIS, July 7.—Paris rarely offers |objection to “atmosphere” as a cos-| tume for chorus girls, but rome | critics here recently have been gen- | | erating large quantities of indigna- | {#ion over the appearance of young | Women in riding breeches along the Avenue Du Bois { “Self respecting Parisians” protests | one critic, “demand that the prefect lof police put a stop to the brazen |practice of women who want to at-| tract attention. If the police do not linterfere, the outraged public will The public, however, remains un-| moved. Crowds along the avenue | watch amusedly the few women who | |prefer to ride astride in breeches and Rfterward get their “land legs” back {by a stroll along Paris’ chief prom- | engde. ] Hhoce who frown on the practice, its devotees retort, are usually very f: lor v tht | | and Poland. | dispute | Germa | completed | establishment LEAGUE BODY ENDS DISPUTE OVER SAAR Praises Governing Commis- sion and Urges France to Withdraw Garrison. By the Associated Press. GENEVA, July 7.—The spirit of concillation led to an amicable solu- tion of the Sarre controversy today when the council of the league o nations adopted a resolution volcing appreciation of the work of the governing commission and express ing the hope that the French garri son would soon be withdrawn and replaced by local gendarmerie. The resolution did not discuss the decre curbing the right of free speech, the ordinance had been withdrawn Lord Robert Cecil and M. Hanotaux made. speeches of felicitation. The world court of justice, tl question of adherence to which is = keenly discussed in America, Wi glven a new assignment of impor tance, when the Polish minority r ferred to it for interpretation t minority treaty between the al Poland expropriat lands possessed by Germans, and t hinges on question who are entitled to be recognized and who as Poles in na tionality. In the matter of concessions clause, objected to by the America representatives s embodying ti dangerous principle of confirming u: contracts. formed an in portant feature of the discussione. All the delegates tonight kept cor plete silence concerning today's mee ing. The only utterance which w common to ali the delegates was ti it was impossible to form an opin as to whether these final discusic will succeed or fail. 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