The New York Herald Newspaper, March 23, 1879, Page 6

6 “PERE HYACINTH The New Religious Movement in Franee. HISTORY-—-DOCTRINES---POUNDERS. ——_—_—_-—_—_——_ Interviews with Pere Hyacinthe, Cornelius Roose- velt and the Comte de Douvilie~Maillefeu. “THE NEW GALLICAN CHURCH NOT SCHISMATIC.” Revival of the Old Catholic Faith in Its Original Purity and Simplicity. a, WHAT THE GALLICAN REFORMERS REALLY WANT The Theology of the New Church— American Sympathizers. Commencement of the Apostolic Millennium. ————_-_—_—_. \ Panis, March 8, 1879. As no one can deny the importance of the religious question in all that concerns modern society—and especially in Catholic countries—it is equally useless to deny the importance of the work proposed to him- self in this centre of Eurapean Catholicity, Paris, by M. Hyacinthe Loyson, better known under his reli- gious appellation of Pare Hyacinthe. If it were » movement undertaken by an ordinary priest of the Boman Church, as has so often occurred, less signifi- cance might be attached to the enterprise; but Pére Hyacinthe is not an ordinary priest nor an ordinary man. He is unquestionably one of the first pulpit orators of the times.’ Besides, he is not only an honest man and 4 sincere Christian, but he is of that small remnant of a great army of men who have always been willing to dic for their faith, and, what is often more difficult, ne is willing to live for it— that is to say, to act according to its dictates. Tam acquainted with Pere Hyacinthe personally, and knowing his repugnance for anything like ‘inter. viewing” I have hesitated about asking him for in- formation which he alone can give. Meeting him the other day I told him of my desire snd of my hesitation. He replied:—‘Well, as I know that you do not come to me out of mere curiosity, but as a gentleman and a representative of the Hera.p, I will try to give you the information you desire, But what are the points on which you wish for informa- tion 7" “Well,” I replied, “I should like to know some- thing of your ideas and your plans, as well as of the programme of the work you have undertaken here.”” “Ah! that covers a great deal of ground,” he said, “nd would require more than a casual conversation like this to make it clear to you. Come to my house to-morrow and we will then enter, fully into the matter.” I need not say that 1 was punctual to the appoint- ment, and I shall proceed to transcribe from my notes, for the benefit of the readers of the Hemaup, the particulars of this interesting interview :— CATHOLIC REFORM, “Will you please tell me what you understand by Catholic reform?” “I understand by it that it is the duty of every good Catholic to remain steadfast to his faith and to try and reform the abuses into which the Church has fallen.” “May I ask what you’ understand by remaining Catholic?” I asked, “To remain Catholic is to hold fast to the faith of the Bible and that of the Church throughout the first centuries; nothing more and nothing less. “And what are the abuses you speak of?” “Well, they may all be summed up in this:—The centralization of power in the person of the Bishop of Rome.” “Then you don’t believe in having s Pope?” I re- marked. , “If,” he replied calmly, and with no show of bit- terness, “if having s Pope who igs and arbi- trary spiritual governor, srrogating himself superiority over bis brother Bishops and tem- poral rights over governments, mo. And if assum- ing to be, or even accepting to be, what alone God is—infallible—ten thousands times no! But I have no objection to having @ central bishop in the gov- ernment of the Church, one among the bishops chosen as dean or president of. the College of Bishops. Indeed, as in all governments there is » central man I think there is no reason why the Universal Church should not have as its central or first Bishop a primate, one who is of them and equal tothem primus inter pares—but not their governor or ruler, for the Church of Christ is a free institu- tion, and, like all free institutions, should govern itself. THE CHARACTER OF THE PRIMACY. “This, you see,” he continued, “is what Christ evidently established in the person of Peter and what ‘was continued by the Apostolic Church down to the rivalries and wars between the great Sees of the Orient and Occident and what was simply the primacy as it exists in the Anglo- American Episcopal Church. This ancient primacy is as far removed from the modern Papacy 8s are order and justice removed from disorder and injustice. And while there may have been historical and geographical reasons why this central See should be in Rome, there is no moral reason why it should not be in London or New York. It was not # bad idea,” he added, by parenthesis, “that of your excel- lent Archbishop of New York, Mgr. McCloskey, at the Vatican Council, when he declared that there should be # law passed that no Pope could be elected who had not resided in the United States of America at Jeast four years. Had this law been in operation and Leo XIII. had haa four years of experience with the large heart, the independent and intelligent mind of America, he would, I feel sure, have ventured fur- ther than he has done already in putting down the abuses of the Roman Curia; for he is, I believe, truly honest, virtuous and intelligent man, only he has inherited the toils and trammels of the Papacy andis not strong enough yet to break away from them and stand out as a great deliverer of the Church of Christ. But," continued the Pere, as if in » sort of prayer, “God, who is doing so much for us, may be preparing the way for a great Pope, a hero, a saint aod mayhap a martyr, who will stand up and say, “Thus fai dno farther will we go. We will return to the heritage of Christ, leaving the ill-gotten gains of the world!’ Ah! yes, that time must come. AN AMERICAN POPR. “If we could have had Mgr, McCloskey, of New York, or the venerable and saintly Archbishop of St. Louis —Mr. Kendrick—clected Pope,” he continued, “I believe we should have already entered upon a new era of Catholic progress. These men, with other American bishops whom I could name, as well as the great Croat, Strossmayer, held out as long as pos- sible, foreseeing the evil result of the new dogma of infallibility ; but at last the pressure from Rome be- came too great; they saw before them only the dis- member of their dioceses and the shipwreck of many souls, and they, alas! yielded. And we who know the inner working of the Roman system know what the world does not know—how these bishops suffer.” “but,” Lasked, “if you reject the sovereignty of the Pope, do you really feel yourselt to be Catholic? You know that those who do this are generally looked upon as Protestants?” “Well,” he said, “I will ask you in reply if, when the English colonics in America threw off their alle- miance to Engiand, did they, in their war of indepen- NEW YORK HERALD, SUNDAY, MARCH 23, -1879.—QUINTUPLE SHEET. dence, cease to be American? No! It was only when they were ridof foreign rule that they became truly American, and therefore for us in France to become really and truly catholic we must cease to be Ro- man—we must be French Catholics. CATHOLICISM AND PROTESTANTISM. “And as to being Protestant, if Protestantism con- sists in protesting against the errors of Rome (or er- rors out of it), then Iam one; but if it means deny” ing the doctrines of the undivided Apostolic and Catholic Church as they were taught and believed from their foundation down to the time of the sepa- ration of the Church, then I am not Protestant, ‘Then it is very difficult for me to accept the infalli- bility of any man, be he Luther or Calvin (and I re- @ecct them both, and Luther thé most), while I re- ject the infallibility of the Bishop of Rome. No. I can accept no man’s doctrine—no human Church—I ac- cept only Christ's doctrine and Christ's Church! Men may create institutions, governments and systems, but they cannot create churches. And therefore, when people talk about my founding a new Chureh, it is nonsense. I could not if I would, and I would not if Icould, In fact, the work we seek to do is a reform of discipline and not of doctrine. And when the in- jurious usages of men—the cramping, galling chains of, unnatural and unrighteous discipliue—are ped in their true light, and when God’s truth and Christ's love stand unveiled and free, then will men be brethren, then ineaaiag: aud hatred will cease and the Church, united, will again be strong and Deautiful—strong to save and bewutiful to draw us toward heaven. But when the divine foundation is covered up or its progress obstructed by human errors, then not only men can but Christians should assist in preserving order and reforming evils, No forester or gardener can make the oak, but he can and should see that the tree is not strangled with arasites nor left without watering und pruning. itis so casy, if men would only take time for calm reflection, to distinguish the divine from the human. Divine things come from and belong to human things are ours to care for and regulate. The Church of Christ is an institution half human, half divine— a human system based on divine principles. Or, haps, it would be more correct to say it is a divine Restitution adapted to human necessities. If it were entirely divine all Christians would be angels, and the Church would be heaven; and if it were entirely human we should be without light, love or order throughout the world.” DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC AND ROMAN HURCH, “You distinguish,” I said “between the Catholic and Roman Church?’ “Certainly,’” he replied, ‘just as you distinguish between Washington, with its small District of Co- lumbia, and the United States of America, Rome is an integral part of the Roman Catholic Church, but she is only a part of the Catholic Church. True, it is the seat of the coat government, and if she would act wisely and loyally, allowing other nations, as Washington does your overnors, their en- tire liberty of action and development, then, and only then, would harmony be'restored to the divided Church. ‘If you ask any Greek or Anglican who ranks first to-day as Bishop, he will tell you, ‘The Bishop of Rome.’ Therefore, I believe that cach State, country or nation should be allowed to choose its own spiritual rulers, as it does its civil governors, and not have strangers imposed upon it.” “Then you in tayor of the Episcopal form of government,” I said. ‘A GREAT EPISCOPAL REPUBLIC, “Certainly I am; tor when well inte and adapted it would be a vast and sublime spiritual re- public extending throughout the entire world, with no earthly king and much less a despotic autocrat. Christ, our only King, is lifted up with His kingdom, which is not of this earth, and to explain fully the idea of the Church—this ecurthly, grand republic, something human and still divine—is the fair and loving bride of the Heavenly King; thisis the Church of Christ.” The Pére spoke with that air of earncat conviction and deep teeling which denotes a full be- Never in spiritiial things. He added:—‘But I fear I am carrying you too far into theology and meta- physics for a newspaper article.” ““Yhe American people,” I rejoined, “take a great interest in these questions. “Yes,” he said, ‘‘and it is because I know they are intelligent und eager in the research of truth that I have consented to give you my ideas on this im- portant queation.”” “But,” I asked, “who are the members of this great spiritual republic? Is it only those who sceept the Episcopal form of the Church?’ “By no means,” he replied at once. “All who be- lieve and are baptized are children of Christ and members of His Church. But I think they lose much by not maintaining the organized family rela- tions which I believe He wished established with the Apostles and which has continued ever since throughout the principal parts of the Church. I know many ford Christians and, I may say, some holy men in the Protestant communion, but it is be- cause they themselves personally have received direct grace from Heaven, and not because of their ecclesiastical systen:s—rather, I should say, in spite ofthem. It is the same in the Catholic Church. How many admirable Christians—saints number- leas—are to be tound in it despite the errors of Rome! To maintain unity of faith it is best to maintain unity of action. You, alas! have had experience evough in war to know that however patriotic or virtuous the individual soldier or squad of soldiers may be, it is indispensable that they should be in- corpor:ted into the general army if good work is to be yot out of them. Then, you know,” he con- tinued with a significant smile, ‘independent skir- mishers are apt to mistake friends for foes, and fire upon each other—” i THE METHODS OF REFORMATION. “But the Protestant Reformation was certainly a great event,” I ventured to put in. “Very true,” he replied, “and one that did great bpd ‘and as my enemies compare me so often to ther Ican only say I pray God to help me in the way of doing what that great man tried but failed to do—that is, to bring about # reform within the Roman Church and not out of it! You know, when the careful housewife puts her house in order it is not by throwing sand and water outside of it that she carries her point, You also must know that Luther wished to maintain tne Episcopate, as the old Lutherans do in Scandinavia to- , and that he maintained the great Catholic doctrines and sacra- ments—among others the belief in the real resence and the practice of confession. But, alas! Ris days were not our days, and his followers fell into rous ways, and to-day lands of Luther and of Calvin are the harvest fields of infidelity; and I verily believe that one great cause of this is the want of good Church government—a solid Episco- pacy. Germany has always felt this and has often Faw forth projects for its re-establishment. You ‘ave, perhaps, read Dullinger’s work on this subject, ‘The Reunion ot the Churches.’ My wife is now translating it into English in order that its facts and arguments shall have as wide a circulation as possi- a 1 aot the result of the Reformation was immense,” said. “Certain, and justly; for the Roman Church was in such absolute need of reform that small efforts accomplished # great deal, It helped to revive faith and resistance to error, and its impetus was so strong that it did great and good work for two or three centuries. But, alas! this impetus is losing its force. Infidelity crept in through the weak places, and to-day it is atmost impossible to find a Lutheran who accepts the strong, vigorous doctrine of Luther, or # Calvinist who believes the high and narrow doctrine of Calvin. I have mets good many, and I never encountered one yet!” “You place # great importance, then, upon Church government,” 1 said. “Yes, sir, I do, for 1am too much of a Frenchman ‘and you are too much of an American not to place great value upon good governments.” He spoke earnestly, but continued, with a swile:—“Iam not so narrow minded as to think a people change en- tirely with » change of government, but I do be- Heve # solid government is a guarantee of liberty and order, and, therefore, of good citizenship. Ido not, however, believe that an episcopate is neces- sary for the salvation of souls, but I do believe it is necessary, in the long run, tor the preservation o "7 f faith. TMK APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION. “Then you naturally believe in the apostolic suc- cession?” I inquired. ‘Certainly I do,” he replied. “But you know some of your Protestant friends cannot understand this,” I said, ‘You, I know,” he good nuturedly rejoined, “but it is very egotistical to presume that all Cliristians should think like one self, aud then this is not sur- prising, after the excesses of the Roman bishops, that they seo no good in them nor in their system, But they should not coufound men with principles. ‘Then I have heard it said (how true it is Ido not know) that there are men to be tound, Englishinen, who would destroy the royal succession of Great Britain to build up 1 Ben ono in England, And, more than this, I have bh also that there are to be found Americans who think « king would suit the United States bes (Here it wes my turn to smile.) t,’ he continued, “the plainest common senso tel us that breaking tho succession in either of these countries would not be a happy event for the world generally, And white they are not identical the cases are analogous, and in their greater sense as important to the Church as is the leyacy bequeathed trom father to son, if they want to keep the of faith—the homestead—in the family. continued, ‘it seems to me thore cannot of doubt to any one who will read tho New Testa- mont, seeking only the truth, independent of all prejudice, that Christ by the imposition of hands» established the holy order of priesthood. History proves to us that this imposition of hands has been practixed from that time down to the present by all the great Catholic branches of the Church. Aud as reyards bishops, I believe that the legitimate way of making them 1s that they should be chosen by the people—the believing people—and consecrated by the bishops who have been regularly consecrated themselves, This admirable conjunction of human and divine power cannot fail to bear rich and lasting fruit.” “In speaking of Luthor, you just mentioned tho escrament of the commanion, wr you allow me to ask you if you hold to the doctrine of “THR REAL PRESENC “Lee you are cutechising me,” he replied, with his kindly smile. ‘Well, we all—we men who feel ourselves full grown—need fo learn our catechism over again inthe same spiritof youthtul trust and innocence in whieh we first learned it. As I believe in the Bible, and in that most exact of all our Saviour’s doings and sayings at Hi» Last Supper, I do most certainly believe in His real presence in the holy communion, And that it should be pertect in forin it should be administered to all the taithful in the true form—bread and wine, This is what 1 have } sends done years ago in Geneva. Ido not believe im any material presence, in the gross sense of that word, but in Christ's spiritual presence, and to those who live by faith spiritual things are far more real than are material things. “But, transubstantiation’’—I began, “An! yes, of course you ask that, just as they all do; but Ican only repeat what I have already said; Ido not believe in any gross, material or chemical changes of the elements; but, with St. ‘Thomas of Aquinas, one of the first Roman Catholic theologians, I believe that Christ is present after the manner of spirits, and I can’ no more ex- plas this great mystery than I can explain of what js constituted Se, gornes. bedy of the Saviour in heaven, It it co! be explained it would cease to be a mystery and at once lose its intrinsic character of a sacrament, and I believe all these quarrels of words over this divine mystery are not only useless but harmful.”” ‘THE QUESTION OF CONFESSION, “And as to contession?"’ I asked. “Ah, certainly, I knew that would come next; usually, however, it comes first. I once knew @ Catholic converted to Protestantism—a missionary sent to Italy-—-who thought the most crying abuse in the Roman Church was the wearing 7 priests of lo robes and straight white collars! Others similarly regard the burning of waxen tapers, that beautitul souvenir of the Last Supper, whon Jesus and his tollowers were forced to hide themselves away from the persecuting Jews, and which is also for us to-day a souvenir of those dark, terrible days when the faithful followers took refuge in the Roman catacombs, Some, again, think that incense is our condemnation, as if it was not sweet, to recall by its odor the precious gifts offered to the new-born Saviour and to remember the beautiful apocalyptical vision of the angel with the golden censer, offering much incense with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar. If it was meet to offer frankincenve to the infant Saviour I see no harm in offering it as a sweet-smelling souvenir now; but this is not an article of faith no more then the burn- ing of candles, and Catholics are not obliged to use or believe in them, These things belong to the wethetics of religious services, the same as religious music, poetry, statuary and pictures.” PICTURES IN CHURCHES, “Then you admit of the propriety of having pic- tures in churches?” I said. “Well,” he replied, “I admit that all the faculties of man should be cultivated and employed for the glory of God, andif Heaven has kindly given to some men genius they are bound to use saat gitt for heavenly purposes—that is to say, to lead the minds and hearts and actions of men toward spiritual happiness—toward holy things. Fine art should oly art, and if Christians may have these in their homes with profit to their minds and souls, then I see no good reason why they should be excluded from the great home of Christians—the Church, And I do not believe any intelligent being is in danger of worshipping a picture or a statue of Christ or any saint any more than o picture of a saintly father or mother. And we all know how precious these faces are when once we are separated from them by long distances ordeath, Remember, I do not think it necessary to have pictures in churches, but if we have them let them be good. But this is a long way trom the question of confession.” “I do not in the least regret this deviation,” I re- yee. sas you have told me many things of impor BENEFITS AND EVILS OP CONFESSION. “Well, as to confession,” he continued, “T think that it may be and has been # means of scandal and evil, but it may also be a means of immense good to a soul bur- dened with doubt or sin to find a worthy pastor who can help him in his straggle with doubt and tempta- tion. As much as I abhor the inquisition of the confessional or the forced contession I should cer- tainly feel myself an unworthy pastor of the people and minister of God if any poor sinner should come to me in the confidence of confession, asking to be helped out of his sin, and I refused him all the aid im my power, No intelligent Catholic believes that confession to man is anything if it does not lead to or follow absolute repentance to God, and when I find such a one to be really and truly repentant, with a full determination to abandon the sin, I could in all conscience ssy—not in my own name, for I am but the servant of the Great High Priest, who is Christ, but in His name and in the name of the Church against which he has also sinned—I should say:—'Your sins are forgiven by the grace of re- pentance and of Christ's love; go in peace.’ Con- fession should be entirely left to the option of the individual. If he needs it then let him seek a worthy father in the faith and go to him; but ic repentance before God suflice he must judge of that in his own conscience. As confession is practised more or less in every religious body and without comment in the Protestant churches, so it be in the Catholic body as soon as it is optional with the faithful and as soon as priests learn that they have uo right to question and that their duty is to listen, and partic- ularly when we have a married clergy these abuses will naturally cease,” THE QUESTION OF CELIBACY. “You speak of a married clergy,”’ I said, “and from the fact of your own © Linfer that you are decidedly opposed to the celibacy of the priest.’* “You are mistaken,” he replied, “I am not opposed. tothe celibacy of the priest when it is voluntary and real, when it is a virtuous state, a holy sacrifice made tor God, for the good of one’s own soul and tor tue good of others. Such # sacrifice can only be made by. great and pure natures for a holy cause, And such 4 sacrifice ix sublime and will have a great reward. But I am opposed to vows, for they are useless in such cases as these we speak of, and in cases where celibacy is not free and joyous as it should be vows become worse than uscless—harm- fal, and often chains of perdition. Then throughout the Roman Church in the Orient the clergy are mar- ried, with the full approbation of the Pope.” jut when vows are once made?’ I asked, “Well, the harm is in the making and notin the breaking; for any promise we make in ull sincerity, as in youth it is often done, but which we find is’ not only a mistake but a fatal error, and a cayse of actual injustice, wrong and sin— then God, who knows how to unloose all bonds and set free all consciences, is sufficient to relieve any one from all imprudent ‘and rash prom- ises. Then the forced celibacy of the priests es of them a caste, separating them from the rest of the faithful, from the family, from the State, from citizenship and trom human society; and thus cut off from human ties “ase nye becomes the in- strument. the machine, the valet of a foreign Power. Marriage for the Catholic priest,” he coutinued, ‘tis the most direct and sure way of shaking off the Roman yoke of spiritual despotism, and im its im- Mense consequences is enough in itself to bring about 8 gene! and salutary rm in the Catholic Church. ‘THE BIBLE AND THY Mass, “And what other reforms do you propose?’ I asked. F “One of the most pressing is that of putting the Bible into the hands of ail the people and that of having the mass and all the religious services cele- brated in the language of the people.” “And the mans,” Tusked, ‘do you expect to change “You might as well ask me if I intended to change the holy communion," he replied, ‘‘for the mass 18 only that, with certain forms, We may modify forma, but we shall certainly not attempt to change prin ples or modity sacraments. Then what can more beautiful when recited in a language under- stood by the People than those sublime psalms and magnificent biblical prayers? for the mass is com- poxed of them. There are many superfluous forms and genufiexyions; and then we sre preparing our litaryy—that is our service for the mass ani pers—trom the old Gallican services betore Rome interfered with it.” RELATIONS OF THK PERK WITH THE ENGLISH CHURCH. “May I ask a question concerning your relations with the English Church, tor I fear they are not entirely understood by the public?” “That is not sti e,”" he answered, “for the case t* entirely new and I willtry and explain the matter to you. As we here in France who sevk s religious reform within the Church are Catholic and will re- main go, and as our legitimate Bishop here in Paris (and throughout’ France, aud, alas! throughvut the Roman Church) has abdicated into the bands of a usurping foreign Bishop—the Pope of Rome—we are determined uot only to stand by our Christian faith, that which was bequeathed us by the ancient Church of France, but alvo by our patriotic princi- ples, and will remain French Catholics instead of Rowan Catholics, And ay episcopal jurisdiction is refused ux by our own French Episcopate we have usked provisional episcopal aid, such 4s ordination and confirmation, until we become a thoroughly or- ganized and regularly constituted autonomous Church, The Greek or old Catholic churches of Switzerland, Germany or Utrecht could have fur- nished us will this aid, but it was more convenient for us to ask it of the English Ch % “But people call the Kuylish Church Protestant,” ed, I remarke : “Ot course, because she has protested against Rome, ; but while she has reformed if she has retained Catholic faith and Catholic iples, and I betieve that the Anglo-American pal Chureh is to-day the best, most werul aud truest organized Chureh in existence. It is ver; probable that she may be a little tinctured wi Calvinism, owing to # general influence of the Reformation; and, on the other hand, she may have some shadings of Romauism, owing to the long com- but with Rome, for we all know that opposing forces leave their influence on their antagonists. ‘1! are needs and imperfections everywhere, and so there will be until wo escape out of the church militant into the church triumphant. But we French olics become in no way members of the English Chureh, inas: ‘h a# we maintain our French rites, liberties and nationalities.” ‘The Pére now threw himself back in his arm chait,, and I knew by his manner that he had said alt he ited to say, I could only remark, in thanking “Well, if you can carry out your plans, and if Catholics will accept your ideas, it will certainly about a olution.”” . uttered the last word before he recovered the carnestness with which he usually ks, exclaiming :— No, no! I wili have no revolution, but reform! Iwould give my lite—and I intend to give it—tor rete » but not o hair of my head for revolution, for revolution destroys and rerorin builds up; am if we can expect to have any real and lasting success, and, above ali, if we expect the biessing of Heaven, all things must be done caimily, with sober tion, steady purpose and earnest prayer, combatting with words of love and cart charity, sufferi wrong without resentment, for wake of truth, He held out his hand, saying nd now, goodby. ‘Tell the Cathalics Ameri to think of these things caretull: seriously, as becomes that great and free le, and the Protestants, too, tor they have «# great part to play in the futire, not only of the Catholic Chureh, but of Christianity INTERVIEW WITH MR. ROOSEVELT. Having obtaiued @ pretty clear conception of the Reageie of hia Catholic reforms from iyacinthe, 1 naturally wished to hear something of | the practical workings of the movement, and there- fore called upon Mr. Cornelius Roosevelt, whom I knew to be a prominent member of Pére Hyacinthe’s church. This gentleman is one of the oid and well Kuan Bor York Cov ie ae fear mn its, anton Iwas personally acquainted with him he very iy con- sented to give he information I desired. “I understan I said, “that tod are taking great interest in the new Catholic “an Church which Pore Hyacinthe has founded?” “Yes,” he replied, with a significant smile, “and, as a HERALD map, of course you want to know why Ido so, Well, while I am not at all desirous of mak- ing the public acquainted with my private affaira, I will frankly tell you that I became acquainted with and greatly attached to Pére Hyacinthe at the time of my marriage. \ It. was he who married me, aud he showed himself on that occasion not only # true priest, but a real friend, and one has but to know Limto-ep reciate at once the purity of his mind and the sincerity of his convictions, aud, in short, to love him and -trust him. 1, a8 my wife was a French» Catholic,; but, like thousands of others, driven from Shot chprch by the exaggerations of miineering spirit of ite priests, and I ing of the Atherican iscopal Church, which is truly Catholic ip faith and atop ed it was, you see, a very easy matter for us to be one mind, of one Christign determination and one earnest desire to worship.the same God.in our home and in church, Then I am not the only American of the church, Dr, Crane, the wellknown dentist and the Sobngsie organist for so many years at the American charches here in Paris, bas joined us and co-operated with us in the work. But, speaking ot the ‘work,’ it is but right that you ‘should know that it is no work of proselytism that Pore Hyacinthe has undertaken, for the members of other churches, if they are Chris- tians and ‘Uelievers, can come to us without abandon- ing their own denomination. In fact, we are catho- lic and not on “THE CHARACTER OF THE MOVEMENT. “You must have great confidence in the work, said; ‘for 4 man who gives his time and means to it as you have must have full faith in it?’ “Of course I believe in it, I believed before we began, and now, trom the great success we have had since the “church was opened, I am fully convinced of its neceswity..:Any.oue living in France as I have done, and secing the low standard of morals existin; here, and which js dug, I am convinced, to the lac! of a reasonable gua righteous religion—for, say what you will, the French need and want religion, for they cannot accept the Church that is se upon them—any one, ['say,\who has studied this qu and knows at the same time what a great and tear- less apostle God has raised up in such man as Pere Hyacinthe, cagingt doubt the succoas of the work. But to hear him preach is to be convinced. He car- ries his hearers with him by the sogndness of his doctrines, by the power of his wonde#ful eloquence, and, above ajl, by his profound, convictions. You feel that you have before you # man ready to die for his faith, and. you know there are not many like him in that respect to be found nowadays.” e THE NEW CONGREGATION. “Have you many adherents ?’’ I asked, “In lesa’ than.four weeks nearly four hundred per- sons have given in their vames, and there are thou- sands who are with us who have not yet had the op- tunity of doing so. Our present church is po small.’ -We have to shut the doors in the faces of thousands whq struggle to get in when aly twelve hundrod can be . But vidence will give us alarger chirch or a larger number of small ones be- fore long, no doubt. e are taking down walls this week toenlarge the church, but even then it will not be sufficient for our wants.” ma who are the people who are joining you?” I “Well, they.are from all classes, The working- men are largely represented, and were the first to bring their c! n to be baptized. Then we have many from the middle class (the ie) and several from the upper class (the nobility) pelng almost all believing Catholics wuo have abando: the Church of Rome. ° ‘the congregation is made up principally of thinking men, many Deputies, Sena- tors, literary men and students, and it is noted by all that they: have never seen men _ predominat- ing to suck ‘an extent in any church. And to give you an idea of the attraction which the. teachings:of the Pére Hyacinthe has for people, I should tell you that an acquaintance of mine, an American clergyman, went to Notre Dame a few days ago to high muss, and there were but fitty persons there all told, and one-half of those were of the church service—singers, priests, &c,—there were searcely any ‘men. From there he came to our church and found thousands vainly trying to get in. So you see the people have the great cathe- dral and-foHowed the preacher to his humble chapel. We have a number of priests who venture t! in citizen dress—last Sunday a sec: of Leo XIII: ‘was present—and the best of it is they declare that the Pére preaches no heresies nor new-fangled doctrines, and that he confines himeelt strictly to the Bible doctrine ‘of ‘the ‘Old Catholic Church, #o that ote not strange that poor Archbishop Guibert is abled.” THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT. “But all this costs money,” I said. “Yes; but you have been in Americaand know that the Church can’ live without State pay,"and we in- TARAS pie, BE it can also be dope in old v English’ friends sre helping Catholics, the people here in first move to secure the church and Of course you are aware that the a a ee my | rd, not ereby, 1n addition to his spirit caren, cneunibeted by ts care of worldly gone.” “And do you expect anything from America?’ I it it fi . Pite Myscinthe iked. he “Certainly. We hope they will help us, for, owing to the peculiar habits of the French, we cannot get slong at the beginning without aid from our breth- ren clswhere.--And, ‘by the by, I wish you would just tell our friends on the other side of the Atlangic that we hope they will not forget this most important mission in the centre of Romanism, and that if ‘they want to help us cau send their donations to Bish Philadelphia; . Littlejohn, of ~ Island, Mr. Hilborne L, take time for nd become ry ginning, for it will the w turoughout France ai -9u] owt “and with regard to priests, have you many with your” ? “It is not the quantity that is lacking, but the quality; for Rome has made sad havoc with her priests, more even than with the laymen; and the Pore Hyacinthe® is most careful about whom he takes to work with him. But he bas already =e engaged to help‘him for the present. They will here in ‘a ‘few days, when we shall be able to have daily services.” “Aud ‘on the part of the French government do you find any difficulty?” “No; for the Pére Hyacinthe has an explicit promise froin the government that he shall be unmolested, Then there is » bill before the Chambers which will be passed soon, ‘and which secures t freedom of worship if France. And besides all thinking and particularly voverning men know that there dt is the most powerful organization of its kind that exists iu the world. Therefore we have the approbation of all, thinking men and intelligent Christians;”’, INTERVIEW WITH THE COMTE DE DOUVILLE-MAILLEPEU. Having obtained the doctrinal and practical features of the new prograinme of Catholic reforms 1 deter- mined ,to.complete it by examining it under its po- litical aspects, I thereture called upon the Com.e de Douville-Maillefeu, member of the Chamber ut Dep- uties for the Departinent of the Somime, who 1s one of the moss ardent advdcates of Catholic retorm and & promoter and vestryman of the new Gallican chapel.- I tound him a courteous, amiable gentle- man, speaking English fluently, and willing to give me all the information 1 desired. Im person the Comte de Douville is one of the finest specimens of the Frenchman that I have met. He is, I should think, about forty-five years of age, tall, shouldered, with a pale olive complexion, black beard and hair slightly tinged with gray, He has an imposing mili- tary air. Socially he is an aristocrat, belot to one of the oldest families of France, but tically he is # democrat, acting with the Left in the Cham- ber, and # stanch republican, He is » retired off- cer of tho marine ‘and has travelled all over the workd. - Although of an impulsive uature (and I have this from those who lave serve! with hii), he, unlike the generality of, hisy fellow officers in foreign ports, devoted’ his time to study and explora. tions, in which he was much aided by the wonderful faculty which he possesses of acquiring rapidly the language of eVery country that he vivits. A close student—curious to say for aman of his profession— his favorite stady has been that of theology. 1 may observe, en passant, that when I called to see him he ife oc St. Paul” in his hand. Yet he cer- catia the Cathottc ponty, sae te & al hy iyponed cal e 0 y, for he haw always them energetically, and they hold him in Carter. It is worthy of note that he is almost equally misun- derstood by the Protestants. THE POLITICAL ASPECT OF THE MOVEMENT. “You ask my opinion,” he said, “as to this nove. ment of Catholic reform, commenced by Pure Hya- cinthe, regarded from « political point of view. Perbaps the best and shortest way for you to arrive at it would befor you to read » programme I dis- tributed among my constituents before my to the National Assembly in 1872. I thought then, as 1 think now, thet there is no wolid bes mueity for litical future of ithout 8. rad feligious reform, and in read- ing * my political programme you will soe that I stantly quote the United States in sup- t of mp vie Indeed, “your government hae #6 been my i and should, more especially in ite systems of education and religious liberty, Be our meen ‘dintane mateo ‘appeomnne tly, whiel at co oxuctly. Here in France we have to contend with the two oO} ing clements of furious fanaticiem and rabid ica lit ‘or the first nothing is table im morals, jon or civil government save whatcomes: roved by regen nk as to be | bn extreni m sorry is manner We ing Riss is the yreat failing of my own party (the repubtican party)—in rejecting Rome they LF aes of to reject gil religion and even to reject Chriat ity from and itself, Its motes sort of fashion than conviction that we have fallen into here iu France of doubting all revelations Tejecting ail systems of religion. 4nd it should be added—and the fact is not credit- able to uses Frenchman—we have taken thie fashion from Germany. d for uw ‘8 nation and 8 repub- He, thig Js mont jerous. 7 ENEMY OF FRANCE, “pile 14 ab beamamner on Hesne Cosdte bes évee active cnomy—an onemy dwelling, not fro tiers, but in our ialdat ese merely in our arches, but in our schools, in our homes. Her influence and power are not to be contested. And, irstead of meeting this foreign enemy with similar but more effective arms, we abdicate al) religion, and’ hand over to thiseonemy our arms and ammunition, altbough spiritual arms are the best and strongest that can be employed against her by any nation. ‘There is therefore but one thing for us to do if we hope to retain our hard-gaimed liberties, and that is to enter upon » course of complete religious reform, such as we have now commenced, for believing Catholics with liberal ideas—and they are legion— will hold fast to their old fortr-ss until they find another and better refuge. Believing Catholics cannot accept Rome and will never accept infidelity, As to Protestantism, it is of so small # force and so little known that it offers no amelioration of the situation. Of course my political associates think me somewhat toqué (crazy) on this point, but they at least know it is no new conviction with me. Then it is not merely for the political interests of the coun- try, but for its social and domestic welfare, that I this new movement as important. The only hold upon man is e, and when that is dead you have but poor elements to constitute a free and people from. And to eliminate religion wholly from society is nothing short of « direct and return to jam. As you will see by my programme, my formula is this. tour | toro of a e liberty, education and religion; any one of these the ‘edifice topple over.”” CHRISTIANITY THE BASIS OF YREENOM. “But,” gh pemaeede “the Anserican Republic is Protestant.’ “Yes, know it is when you speak of different communions; but it is not because of any particular it doctrine which the ple hold that iberties are so secure. It is use they are first of all, and above all things, Christian, and as the foundation of all Christian churches is the same I believe it is because you in the United States are Christians, and not because you are Calvinists, that you have become the great people that you are.” And to-day it is uot because we are Catholic, but because we are Roman, that we are as you find us.” Here the Comte gave me the atatistics of the Catholic pop- ulation of the United States and their ecclesiastical increase in such a correct manner that I was struck = his knowledge of our country and its institu- ns. “And do you not think a Protestant reform would sneered better here in France than a Catholic re- form?" “Certainly not, and for two reasons, French Prot- estantism is in too sad a state of infidelity anu in too weak a state as an ecclesiastical institution to make any breach in the Boman syatem, much less in the Catholic taith. No, we cannot break away from our past history of from our convictions of a complete religion; we must simply reform ourselves, as Teng: has done for the lish Church, while preserv- ing the Catholic faith form, And in the reaction which has taken place here against Christianity Protestantism offers‘a poor refuge for taith, as reat. national edifice are industry, and if you take away will sooner or later rationalistic doctrines can be preached and are acrange in almost ev Protestant pulpit in » which cannot be in any Catholic pul- opposed, narrow pit anywhere. I am as and tism as I am to Protestan' superstitious, domincering Romanism. I have few friends in either of these extremes, and may say I have until now isolated in my religious opin- ions; but, thank God! I have never lost faith nor courage, Then, you see, 1 was fa edu in It was there, in the Anglican Church, that I saw the truest Christianit tised the truest Catholicity develo) Itiva t regret to me that I have never yet in the United States. Before Pere Hyacinthe came back to Paris I knew not what to do for the religious instruction of my eons.. I was on the point of sending them to Berne, under the care of Bishop Herzog, use I would not have them brought up either as Protestant or Roman, much less without any ot “And you count upon ment?” the success of this move- “Cortainly; for, after all, this radicalism in relig- ion is fictitious, The French people need religion and will have it. In ten years the reform will be ac- cepted—not by all, perhaps, but very generally throughout } rance.”” “You really think that outside Paris the people wiil accept this retorm ?” T asked. “4 pean ices tone tor if than we are, for dice is strong in the country, and besides ‘linger still throughout France strong Gallican princi- ples. The older clergy are opposed to the usurpa- tions of Rome, and numbers of the younger clergy are animated by patriotic principles. What we want is light on the sul ‘a A valet here brought in s telegram, and the Comte to leave at once for Versailles, to be tet a discussion inthe Chamber, The above, wever, embraces all that I wished to obtain from him on the subject. SICKNESS IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. preju- To tux Eprror oF THE HERALD:— ‘The prevalence of scarlet fever at the present time, the danger of its spreading among school children and the impotency of the measures adopted for its prevention, give rise to public apprehension that it may assume an epidemic form. There is no disguis- ing the fact that paren:s feel deep anxiety and sppre- hension that the disease may be carried trom schools to their homes, and thereby endanger the lives of their families. I am impelled in the interest of public health to refer to this matter, as I am constantly in receipt of intelligence on this subject from parents sud others interested in the welfare of our schools. It, may be well, there- fore, to give the matter serious consideration, end indicate the mesns which experience has proved to be the most efficacious in arresting the progress of diseases of a contagious character and preventing their spread in com- munities through the medium of school contagion. To elucidate the inefficiency of the presont system by.whtch teachers are notified of infected houses where pupils reside who are attending their classes, ‘which is mainly relied upon by the authorities to prevent school contagion, I will state the following facts:—In the year 1877, in answer to inquiries made by the Committee on School Hygiene of the State Medical Society us to the rate of sickness in schools, and whether any observations had been made, I an- awered as follows:—For some time past the Board of Health has been sending notices to the Board of Education acqueinting the latter of the location of infected houses, in order that the teachers may dis- miss from school pupils residing in them and in the contagious tenements. As « rule physicians do not report such cases. Moreover, smong the poorer tenement house population physicians are scarcely ever calle1 jn before the disease has as- sumed fe character, and frequently not until fee geties is ot the tof death. How, then, can the of Health derive its information in time to make it available for the protection oc the pupils’ health? tis, ie eee ae beam oot ‘of the seme family thove living in adjacent rooms con- tinue to atiend schowl, and thus assist in spreading parents or teachers having of the infection, It is are tar from bei Experience bas demons properly protected. that the only efficient means of rotection lies in proper medical su a vigilent watchfulness the Board of Education. The system of notification, as indicated above, is of no practical vulue whatever for the protection of schools, a» may be seen from the following state- ment:—As chairman of Special Committee ot the Medico-Legal Society I addressed a circular to some of our most experienced teachers inquiring into the efficacy of the present mode of notification of cases of sickness in the houses of the pupils. The follow- il te, gives fairly the views of those addressed :-— “You know sickners exists; how long since it com- menced you do not know; you never know when it ceases, and you never learn that the has been disinfected.” Recent publications allege that the Board of Health are aware and virtually the inutility of the present system, im all responsibility; also, the Board of Education take the same ground. Board of Health may very reasouabl: Fhe poory but as regards the they have but to turn to their own records and they will there find that, during the here of smallpox in 1871-'72, the physician of the of Education su] ised the vaccination of the schools, the largest voluntary vaccination in schools on record. A cir- cular was issued by the Board of Edacation to the principals of all the schools, directing them to afford every tacility in their power, and tu co-operate with the physician of the Board in such matters as he might necessary to protect the health of the P< pod ‘The measures at that time carried e schools sately through the epidemic—not a death from smallpox occurred among the pupils, ou thetr' lactation. duriag the period of contagion ir m durin per! of contagion and other measures inn sided b: active and cordial iy Sane conve fon and in- telligent action of the teachers. This resuit was emiven to the parents, trus- tly tees and Boards of Education and ead in a the 5 fel rao bet sol ighly important b- rotection othe health of school children, of the present system and its admitted failure. be pardoned if T allude to the measures ing the epidemic reterred “ae see. In conclusion I muy remark that if st that time the schools were the Board of Education, so the subject in one worthy of naide! Hon’ of the school authorities. Ik 3. O'SULLIVAN. With no idea of self-praise, but fon 0 allude to this matter after an salted Beision Cane may ie to and their success, rotected b; can the; now be and ‘at all tluox, It seoms to me that THE HUNGARIAN SUFFERERS, Chancellor Crosby, with other gentlemen, have taken the initiative steps toward rawsing funas in this city for the relief of tho destitute Hungarian sufferers by the recent flood at Szegedin. Twenty- six thousand dollars have boon subscribed in Lon- don, aud as Mayor Cooper has consented to receive BISHOPS AND PRIESTS. CATHOLIC CONTROVERSY REGARDING THE LATE ORDER FROM ROME-—APPEAL TO THE PROPA- GANDA—RIGHTS OF PRIESTS AND AUTHORITY OF BISHOPS TO BE STRICTLY DEFINED—A IHEOLOGIAN'S VIEWS. ‘The announcement in the Hesaup, on February 5 of lust year, that the jurisdiction of Bishop Conroy, of Ardagh, Ireland, as Papal Ablegate to Canada, was to be extended to the United States, created a com- motion among the bishops and clergy in every sec- tion of the Union, The information was imparted to the Hrnatp by an eminent divine connected with the Propaganda, but it was discredited by the clergy in this country generally, The truth of the state- ment was established shortly afterward, when the Propaganda resolved to issue the decree, but before the Bulls were promulgated the Ablegate dicd suddenly of syncope at the residence of Bishop Power, St. Johns, Newfoundland, on the 4th of August last year. Meanwhile the inquiries of the Ablegate in regard to the disputes between the bishops'and clergy in this country had such an effect in the Sacred College of the Propaganda that the celebrated decree was issued divesting the bishops of much of their power. They were enjoined to appoint in every diocese a council, to be known as “‘Judices Causarum,” who should constitute a tribunal for the trial of priests against whom charges might be preferred, and who should pronounce a verdict of innocent or guilty. Ifthe Bishop to whom the finding should be transmitted would concur the matter would end if the judgment were not adverse to the accused priest, but otherwise the latter wonld have the right to appeal to the Metropolitan (the Cardinal Archbishop in this section), and if the ad- verse decision should be confirmed by the Council of the Metropolitan then the accused priest had the right of appeal to the Holy See. The right of ap- peal remains inviolate should the Bishop refuge to concur in 8 verdict of acquittal, and if such verdict be approved in Rome, as has been the cago in almost every instance since the order was promul- gated, the Bishop is enjoined not only to restore the priest to his functions and¢@harge, but to make pub- lic announcement of the fact from the pulpit. Such was the case in the dioceses of Louisville and De- troit. The Bishop of the latter diocese has recently sent his resignation tothe Pope. The bishops are in nearly every instance dissatisfied with the new order (the full text of which has been published in the Hxnaxp), but it meets the hearty approval of all the priests in the country, as it affords them protection against the caprice of their bishops, many of whom have made direct appeals to Rome for a reconsideration of the order. Bishop McQuade, of Rochester, whoso bitter controversy with Father O'Flaherty in the first year of his episcopate will long be remembered, has paid a visit to Rome re- cently for the express purpose of having the order modified. It is noteworthy, on the other hand, that Cardinal McCloskey and all the archbishops in the Eastern and Middle States, with a few prelates like Bishops Lynch, of Charlest:n, and Kane, of Wheel- ing, favor the order, as it relieves them from a heavy load of responsibility. and in the end pro- motes @ mutual confidence between bishops and clergy that is conducive to the best interests of the Church snd clerical discipline. + A NEW APPEAL TO ROME. The order or “instruction” from Rome ay tong by Cardinal Simeoni, Prefect of the not thus far been satisfactorily car out. Conflicts have arisen between the bishops and the ‘Judices Causarum” or Trial Council, which necessitated another appeal to the Holy See. In one recent in- stance, which is to be & test case on taking advantage of the order by appointing a prone- cutor (who is generally the Vicar oneesy denies the right of the accused priest to be defended by an advo- cate, The Council decided that the accused was entitled to an advocate, but the Bishop refused to admit it, The Council of Judices insit on their bi ie’ the Bishop remained obstinate; the late appeal to Rome. A HERALD reporter, in conver- sation with several priests in the dioceses of Albany and Rochester during the past week, found the clergy in overy instance in favor ot the appeal. The follows ing interview with an eminent theologian of Albany diocese will explain the controversy detail:— juming that you have read the re- cent instruction of the Holy See to the bishops of the United States, Ishould like to ask you a few ques- tions on this important document. And, as re- aan ome: of counsel tor the accused clergy- man Drvrxg—You mean, I suppose, is the accused priest entitled to appear before the Judicial Commission with his counsel? Precisely so. Certainly he has this right by the sacred canons of the Church, acco! to the testimony of all canonists, PORTER—Might I ask you to namea few table writers on ecclesiastical law on this point? Diving—Yes; Devoti, De Angelis, Soy! fene- tuel. All these teach that accused clerics have a righs to counsel or advocates, and that it would be contrary both to natural and canon law to condemn them without such defence. Reroxter—But do you think the bishops wil} allow this uuder the instruction? Divine—They will not, I am sure, undertake to Tees erie 80 plainly laid down by nature and the us ReporTen—But suppose a bishop should sbso- lutely forbid the commission to allow counsel to an acet priest brought before them for trial, what would be the result? Divixe—Either the Judicial Council would take no notice of such » prohibition or would aoquiesce, oF would not act till further instructed from Rome. Reporrxn—! al to the Metropolitan, who, affirming the judgment of the lower court, the vase would go to Rome, Rerorren—And what do you think Rome would Diving—Undoubtedly that the accused must be tried and heard through his counsel or advocate. Revorrxr—From wnat you say lam beginning to see that the commission is no small limitation of the Bishop's powers. Diyins—No doubt the instruction was intended to Umit, aud does materially limit, the powers of the bishops, for surely that portion of the judicial office which consists in the hearing and sifting and admis- sion of evidence is highly important, and to be shorn of it i# no small or trifling limitation of the Bishop's right as a judge. But they have no one to biame for this but themselves; for st all times they have shown themselves averse to all regu- lar canonical proceedings, and by their arbitrary and summary decision of cases have given needless trouble to the Holy Sec, as we notice in the “instruc: tion” itself, which says that from all quarters of the United States priests Nave lodged complaints at ome against their treatment by the bisho Ed Holy See has always urged the Tishops to bror speedy introduction of regular canonical forms and proceedings, but has always been met by the bishops with the objection that the country was not yet ready for such regularity. Rxponten—I inter from what you say that any bishop now write to the Hoty See aud that he would at once Ly from the operation stands, —J pacto, the “Instruction’’—settied and adjusted. And, were I in their place I should not hesitate» about adopting this course, since it must be very galling to them to have their jurisdiction #o largely curtalied as it is plainly by the struction. Rerorrkn—Has the op a right to be present at the sessions of the commission? Divink-The “Instruction” seems to'point to his absence and to require that all should be done on his side by his official, This is also a further proof the commission is the proper mterpreter of itsown powers and of the law and principles lage me = | the reveption of testimony. If, however, the Bishop should insist upon being present at the trial of the case, willing to undergo the humiliation of seeing the commission exercising & portion of his former judicial power, 1 do not think the Holy Seo would offer any objections. Reronren—Can the Bishop, a8 heretofore, inflict summary punishment on clerics without investiga. tion being made beforehand by the commission? é Late tt ¢ te sor Accurate eee must rat be made and passed upon by commission, No Shehop ali proceed tothe infletion’ of pute Pp in! m of pul iehment. Indeed, it may be said that the hands of, bishops in the United States are prot; ly tied (4 the late “Instruction” of the Propagat ‘and can, a8 I said, be loosened only by the ness of the bishops to set in motion the proceedi of the ancient canons, & dvtermi which will be hailed in Rome with great joy, for SSeenel nwo ibe Okarek shad "Swen we ol Uhure! eo observed. Reronren—What do you think will be the rosult of the operation ut the new mode of procedure? Divink—It cannot fail to de good; but its chief benefit, I think, will be in the fact that it will hasten the return to full, formal, regular judicial procesd> ings. *fixronten—What isthe mode of appointment of the Judices and what is their term of 0? Divine—They are appointed at the regular dio cosan synod aud hold office from one synod to an- other, ‘The holding 01 a synod once a year is gritesters. yet, strange to say, there ace dioceses in this country in which a synod haa aot yet been convened, ‘The Bishop in hin discre- tion convene a synod at any ‘due, but the annual synod is, as I have said, obligatory, This appeal to the Propaganda is certain to lead to what the HxnaLp predicted several week intment of an ablegate to the United States ‘ho will be invested with tull powers to decide dis- puted questions between bishops and clergy. ,