The New York Herald Newspaper, April 1, 1868, Page 3

NEW YORK HERALD, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 1, 1868.—TRIPLK SHEET. 3 ha rt ‘Prevalence of wirst class sensation have faded out. | Q. How did you know it was him? A. I saw his IMPBACHMENT The oft repeated question, ““Whatdo you think of | boulder str haat bed, piss Sp PRES - @ | ‘“mpeachment 7’ which has almost taken the place of ¢ ‘After ascertyiin! that it was him, what dia the esua! retiarks on the weather as a method of | yondo? A. IMended him a copy of the resolution e opasing conversation, is tow asked with very much | Of th x te same air of indifference as though the query had wa aoa smoot thedayormight? A. Abou reason of any imattention or yielding of mine. Let me state it again, because to me it seems an invasion of the privileges of the House of Representatives:—“it is that when the House of Representatives states @ question of law to the Senate of the United States in the trial of the Presi- dent of the United States, the Chief Justice presiding Q. Who went first? A. General Thomas went Q. Have you been on terms of intimacy with him? % he had some conversation with General | 4, i have. Sehriver that I did not hear; he was followed by Mr. Q. Has he-been at your house since you have been Stanton, General Moorhead and Mr. Ferry, and then | here? A. Yes, sir, by myself; some little conversation was had ose { Q Do you remember an oceasion when you had a not hear before I got into the room; it was but conversation with Mr. Moorhead about visitng Mr. & moment after they went in, however; Mr. Sanien Stanton’s office? A. [recollect going to the Secre- mal Mr. Thomas as follows, which I under- } tary of War with Mr. Moorhead on the morning of . in the Senate sitting a3 a court can stand between . he conversation—— the 22d of February (1 think) last, the House of Representatives and the Senate and ‘een, “Dnsti day, isn’t it?” and the answer is gener- Did you Seeeienroreleadeans A. Laid. Stood was the summing up of ¢ one mary ( X) last. 2 He Nc nmastbalt ai hg ype Aoroye Trial of President Johnson for High } Sty rweret win egos imereace, "on fap. | Rant yowenrited ne facn a. Ya Witness tr. Stanton sald, “then you, claim to de | muimage a. Thane Coes hae You seen General | estas eae Seuate, the jase ot Represche Crimes and Misdemean Pose they will put Andy out.” Will you read it? here as Secretary of War and refuse to obey my | Q. Where? A. At his house. tives, through its Managers, Candot get nat quealion Ors. ‘There is’ also @ noticeddle abatement in the Vitness read ag followe:— orders?” Mr. Thomas said, “I do, sir; I aha = . What time in the evening? A, In the early part | Of law decided by the Senate, f should be inclined oT ‘for impeachment tickets, and the opinion ha’ A certified copy of the {¢ regolng resolution has been deliv- | quire the mails of the War Department | aoe Of of the evening; I cannot say exactly the liour. to deem it my duty and the duty of the other eeaeend age J P' ered to Brevet ene Lorenzo Thomas, Adju- | livered to me and [ shall transact all the busin » Had you a conversation with him? A, Yes, sir. | Managers, if we were put in that position, to ask in- been ‘expressed that if this revulsion of feeling fet, General of the, Bowed States Avey.and tha semewes | the War Deparieseats) shah was the Leryn ot the wei SPANBERY—What 1s the relevancy of that? mrncnans of the House before we alowed the rights contiau ‘fntu: iy mae denve! ~ 186%. conversation which 1 beard and in fac! e r hat is the object oft ouse to be bound hand and foot at the bec \ THE TESTIMONY FOR THE PROSECUTION. oe herMansgers Will he ‘obliged ‘te S€ | hear of eleven o'clock P. M. So Re Rsor Peery ee tion as I heard it, Mr. Burin tne object is to show the intent and | Of any man,.I do not care who he may be, for @ litte variety mto the entertainment in order to . ‘ificate true? A. It is, * draw a fall house. The play is getting old, and the a re cand chat enamels io thalexe actgrs, for the inost part, have appeared'se often in | ecutive session of the Senate on February 21, 1863, Taterruption of the Proceedings on | the same rete tat their elgnt or tem yards of | the copy of wien Was gerved on General Thomas, clostly written speeches will be read to empty ‘The next witness called was James E. Creecy, who By Mr. BurLeR—Did you make any memorandum | Hurpose with which General Thomas went to the War afterwards? A. I made it at the time; I had paper | Department on the morning of the 22d ; that he went in my hand at the time and I took it down as the | with the intent and purpose of taking possession by conversation occurred; it was copied off by @clerk | force ; that he alleged that intent and purpose ; that in the presence of the gentlemen with ne, in consequence of that allegation Mr. Burl igh invited g. hat was done after that? Where did Thomas | General Moorhead and went up to the War OMice t go it. is, I respectfully submit, a question of most momentous consegience; not of so much conse- quence now when we have a learned, able, honest, candid, patriotte Chief Justice of the United States. But let us look forward to the time which may come in the history of this nation when we get a Jeffries as Fy tate ‘ : 7 iT “thes A. It was then after eleven o’ctock; the rest of | from the conversation, what I expect to prove is | Lord High Steward. We desire that the precedents # Point of Order. — jesus preci Phess soe mee ve Sale vour full bame and, ommelat position. A. | Us came rightto the house and Lleft Thomas in the | this:—After the President of the Uuited siates had | of this good time with good men, when everything ng or two. “What do you think of my re- room with General Schriver, appointed General Thomas and given him directions | 1 quiet—when the country will not be disturbed by port?” asked @ pompous but prosy head ef a depart- | James F. Creecy, Appointment Clerk of the Treasury ant «gene of the members ef a iouse com. | Departinent. . 8 ralttee, Q. Look at this bundle of papers and give me the The Right of Decision Claimed | fons tee La poe ene, mpie a form of commission used, In the ‘Treasury Depart- y Py memtver, ‘I think it would have been vastly ment before the passage of the act of March 2, 1967. by the Chief Justice. proved if you had thrown in @ few anecdotes an the precedent—we desire that the precedent beso settled that it will hold a Jetfries, as it did of old, for it brings to my mind an instance of Jeffries’ conduct on an exactly similar question, where, on the trial of Lord Stanley, Jeffries being Lord High Steward, said to the Earl, as he me to plead—(i give the sub- stance of the word: ‘You had better confess and throw yourself on the mercy of the King, your master. He is the fountain of your mercy and it will be better for you to do it.’ And the Earl of Staniey, if L remember the name aright, replied to Cross-examined by Mr. STANBERY—The witness | to take the War Ofice, and after he had made a quiet stated that he went to the War Department to see | visit there on the 21st, on the evening of the Pat he the Secretary of War on public business; the ise told Mr. Burleigh that the next day he was going to being a rather exciting one went there to ial take possession by force. Mr. Burleigh said ohio with him on public affairs, mamely, on the Mr. StaNBERY—No matter about (hat; we object to subject ok removal; aia talk ee, a ae the testimony. subject; went there in 0 Mr. BurLER—Then you don’t know what you have Mr. Clarke, of New York; arrived eee to object to, if ou don't know what it is. anes Misia before Seinen orelock: i (peemee Moon ee Curer Jusrice decided the testimony admis- an 4 rere there W sible, Mr. Delano was there also; two or three others caine » Speaking In a very low tone. Witness produces eo nabs me paper to Mr. pace cou. ndrums here and there.’ Let the great impeach- Q. Was this the ordinary form, or one used with- ‘leet & company weigh this matter welland vary their | out anysexception? A, It was the ordinary form, 7 is Complaints were made on the part of the Senators ¢7<\4ibition to suit the fastidious taste of the fickle and athe Me eer ese Drea ENe enact wae ee Private Conference of the Court 9 ne aga haste with which the prosecution | Possible to hear what was said by witness. that if it were not consid- . : are pushing the trial meets with much caustic criti. | | Mr. BUTLER suggested yan terwards; could not say what their business SQUABBLE IN THE COURT. him, “Are you, sir, one of my judges, that give : on the Subject. clam. “It does not agree with the general ‘titneas of | ered Improper he would repeat the witness’ an Ay id not state it to. him; General Thomas | | Senator DRake—I suppose the matter of admitting-| me ¢hat advive?” Are you on my trial for tay death 79 things.” .1t is mainiy argued im this wise:—The Man- then came into the room; when the conversation be- } the testimony is a matter for the Senate, and not for Anc Jeiries quailed before the indignant eye of the a agers have thoroughly raked over the whole of the Mr, EVARTS replied that the counsel preferred that Presideni’s past actions. They have selected | the witness should speak go as to be heard. ‘THE CHIEF JUSTICE SUSTAINED. tween them and the Secretary began he had a large the presiding officer. ‘The question should be sub- envelope and pencil in his pocket; during the con- | Mitted, J think, to the Senate, I take exception to versation it occurred to him that it might be well to | the presiding oficer undertaking to decide the point. know what they said; did not know that he was in The CHIkF Justice (rising)—The Chief Justice is of the habit of making ‘memoranda of conversations; | Opinion that he should decide upon objections to evi- nobody requested him to do it; it was of his own cence ee ete incneraot 4u that opinion it is for the motion; after the conversation was ended thought a im. Basal Thomas went out first; the Secretary of War Senator DRAKE-—I appeal from the decision of the followed but a moment after; did not state what his | Chair and demand the decision of the Senate, ‘object was; did not recollect that the Secretary re- Senator FOWLER asked that the question be stated. quested any of the gentlemen to go with him; wit- The Cuter JustickE—The Chief Justice would state ness followed uj his own motion; did not know | to the Senate that, in his Judgment, it ts his duty to that all went Ih General Moorhead and another | decide on questions of evidence in ‘the went in before him; they followed the Secretary very | first instance, and that if any Senator de- soon, perhaps a minute after he went in; couid not | Sires that the question shall” then be aub- say what had taken place before he went in; heard | mitted to the Senate it is his duty to do it. So far as some conversation; dia not know what was then the | he is aware the uniform course of practice on trials conversation; that he had detailed followed; haat Pes pohap impeached in the Senate of the United meil and envelope in his hand when he went in; em id not. know aiara that envelope is now; it was Senator DRAKE—My position, Mr. President, is that bably destroyed; copied it off immediately at the there is nothing in the rules of this Senate, sitting retary’s table; could not say that it was destroyed; | Upon the trial of an impeachment, that gives that had no Knowledge of 1t; the document he had been | authority to the presiding officer over the body. reading from was not manuscript; it was a copy of | That is my position of order. ‘his testimony before the committee, taken from the Senator JOHNSON—I call the Senator to order. The notes he wrote; read them toa young man in the | duestion is not debatable. Secretary's office, who copied them; did not know Mr, BuTLeR—If the President please, is not this that it was important to keep the original; did not | question debatable, know the name of the clerk who took the copy; The CHIEF JUsTICE—It is debatable by the preserved the notes until he testified before the | Managers and the counsel for the President. committee; could not say how long he preserved Mr. BUTLER—We have the honor, Mr. President them; could not say what has become of the envel- | 2nd gentlemen of the Senate, to object to the ruling ‘ope; had not searched for it; suggested, of his own | Just attempted to be made by the presiding officer of otion, after he had returned to the Secretary’s room, the Senate, and with the utmost submission, but that the notes should be written out; a young man | With an equal degree of firmness, we must insist was there, ready to do it; was not aware that any- | Upon our objection, because otherwise it would thing else took place in Genera! Schriver’s rooin | always put the Managers in the condition when the than what he had testified to; could not say who left | Tuling is against them of appealing to the Senate as that room first; left Secretary Stanton there and | ® body against the ruling of the Chair. We have went into the ‘Secretary's room; could not say | been too long in parliamentary and other bodies whether Stanton came in while the notes were being | 0t to know how much disadvantage it is to be copied or not; saw Stanton sitting there in his office | Put in that position—the position of apparent ap- after he left’ the room; did not know what | peal from the decision of the Chair, either real took place between them afterwards; saw no { Or apparent; and we are glad that this case has come friendly greeting between Stanton and Thomas | UP upona ruling of the presiding officer which is in while in’ General Schriver’s room; the notes | Our favor, so that we are not invidious in making he took on the envelope were questions and answers | the objection. Although we learn from what has of which the copy was an exact transcript, though it fallen from the presiding oficer that he understands did not exhibit the whole conversation, and one ex- | that the precedents are in tue direction of his inti- pression occurred to him now that Thomas used and | Mation, yet, if we understand the position taken, that he did not get down. ‘The notes covered aul the | the precedents are not in support of that position. conversation of any importance; what he wrote was | Lest I should have the misfortune to mistake the yerbatiin question and answer; did not take it in | Position of the presiding oficer of the Senate I will short hand. The conversation was very slow and | State it as 1 understand it. 1 understand his position deliberate; Thomas said very little in that conversa- | to be that primarily, as a judge in a court has a tion; Stanton did not.ask Thomas if he wished him | Tight to do, the presiding om claims the right to to vacate immediately or if he would give him time | Tule a fe pada of law, and tien, if any member of man with whose rights he had tried to interfere, and said, “No, | am ®ot one of your judges, and am only advising you as your friend.” ‘{ want the pre- cedent fixed in good times, as they were before Jeffries, so that if we have the misiortune to have such a Chief Justice (we have Andrew Jolinson in the chair of the President) the precedent will be so settied that they cannot in any Way be disturbed, but will be securely fixed for all time. The Cuter Justice repeated his decision to the effect that it was his right and duty under the rules to decide preliminary questions in the first instance without submitting them to the Senate, and if any Senator demanded the judgment of the Senate upon them they might then be submitted to the Senate, Mr. DRAKE—I raise the question that the presiding officer of the Senate has no right to make a decision of that kind, . The Cater JUSTICE (determinedly)—The Senator is not in order. Mr. DRAKE (not heeding the Chief Justice)—I de- mand that that question be po to the Senate, ‘The Carer JUSTICE (with still more determina- tion)—The Senator is not in order. Senator CONKLING—I_ ask whether the question is as to the competency of the proposed testimooy or as to whether the presiding omlcer be competent to decide that question. The Cuier Justice—It is the question whether the Chair, in the first instance, able of deciding on that question. On that the wiil proceed to call the yeas and nays. Senator ConkLING—Before the yeas and nays are called i beg that the latter clause of the seventh rule be read. Senator Howarp read the whole rule, as follows:— The presiding officer of the Senate shall direct all reparations in the Senate chamber, and the pre jcer upon the trial shall direct ail the forms ot pi while the Senate are sitting for the purpose of trying peachment, and all forms during the trial not otherwise specially provided for. The presiding officer may in the first instance submit to the Senate, without division, all quea- tions of evidence and incidental questions; but the same shail, on demand of one-fifth of the members present, be de- cided by yeas and nays. Mr. BINGHAM, one of the Managers, rose to call the attention of the Senate to the language of the rule just read, and submitted, with ali due respect to the presiding officer, that that rule meant nothing more than this—that if a question be raised by the Senate, and one-fifth of the Senators do not demand the yeas and nays, it authorized the presiding oficer simply to take the sense of the Senate on all ques- tions without division, and there it ended. He begged leave to say further, in connection with what had fallen from his associate (Mr, Butler), that he looked on the question as settled by the very terms al e Senator TRUMBULL suggested the witness should Hee eg forty ny se jconaaned stand further from the counsel, and the witness ac- Each one of them was carefully analyzed and | cordingly took his position at the right hand side of Picked to pieces, resolved into its constituent ‘ele- ute oe gc desk, when the examination was con- ments, and put together again in all sorts of dis- | Unued. torted’sha Every possible witness that could be |. For the class of appointments: for which such found to testify to anything of an ambiguous nature SOMIIRSIGRS oot be ane AS rare ‘Ar ates that would serve as well, at least, for conviction as it for used befere 4 time et thin! e would for acquittal, was brought up and riddled. | form for a permanent apg ee ART ‘Their whole case was made out and the bulk of the | _ Mr. Buaen Hom ve the Ho a as been testimony taken before|the summons was issued, and epee. Rye Monee] aid Ince the passage they had little else to do but lock themselves up in | oft Paces larcl re i fos! the. rebate ‘eanca thelr dormitories and fall to with all diligence at | Mr. Stansery, counsel for the lent 7 writing out their long-winded legal arguments, His, BUREE Wa ne BUNT. BiOREN £0; state SOP OIECE OF On the siae of the defouce the case is widely differ- | @ ed Iied:—"The onject of this testi ent. The President could have no idea of the charges rr. Ose rep! og = ol aes pony to be made against him until the articles were an- | 16 to show that prior lo “passage of the ‘act nounced, He had then to select his’ eounsel, | March 2, 1867, known as the Civil Tenure of OMice ‘@ work of care, requiring time to settle | act, a certain form of somiatesion was used ane with a proper degrée of satisiaction. The counsel | Sued by the President of the United States and {hat having been engaged, the auswer tothe articles of | after ti fp Dasenae of the ony ponte 6 re bill & impeachment was to'be prepared. For this heavy | Dew form was made conforming to the provisions o tank the meagre allowance of ten days was made, | the ‘Tenure of Office act, thus showing that the Presi- The Managers had their preparations nearly com- | “ent acted-on the Tenure of OMice act as an actual, pleted, and had time during those ten days to feel | Villd law. Mr. Butler then resumed the examina- esses ‘ollows:— Te tne Counael fa he Crendeet Gore aromuge |. @ Ise there are certain intertineations in this among legal tomes. by the light of day and tracing | form. Do you speak of the form before it was inter- out their argumert, line after line, by the glimmer lined or subsequently? A. This commission shows of the midnight oil. But the answer, by dint of in- me ghans a oars been made conformably to the cessant labor, was prepared in time, and read. The 6 ce bi. exertion required tomeke puswerto ihe charges was, | _ Q. There is a portion of that paper in print and a however, trifling when compared to that which | Portion in writing; do I understand you that the would be necessary to map out and arrange the | Printed portion was the form used before the Tenure whole defence. Surely a fair and reasonable length | Of Ofiice bill was passed? A. Yes. of thme will be given for this vast work, None can | vy. é And the written portion shows the ehanges? A. better afford to be magnanimous than the pewerful. The impeachers, then feeling impregnable in thelr Pe pe: Boba a loud voice the printed portion of the position, safely afford to show magnanimit; J one whom they, ees rd oo ultimately eater These Senator Conness suggested that the reading had thoughts were perhaps in the minds of the Presi- better be done by the Clerk. dent’s counsel—and who shall say how many other The commission, in its original and in its altered citizens of these United States viewed the case in the | form, was then read by the Secretary of the Senate. same light?—when they asked with confidence for | In the original form the office was to be held “during guch time as they felt would be barely sufficient to | the pleasure of the President of the United States for fully prepare themselves, The President was gra- | the time being;” in the altered form these words ciously tees one week. were struck out and the following words substituted: The counsel are working as they never did before, | “until @ successor shall have been appointed and that they may by extraordinary exertion secure the duly qualified. ir i el 5 The examination was resumed, qe a oe eens sien shat ae neemae Q. Since that act has any other form of commission been used than the one as altered for such appoint- * eT OF | mgr Have’ earn the form of the oficial bond of THE HIGH COURT OF IMPEACHMENT, ctoers used prior tothe civil Tenure of Office act? A. I have. (rhe witness produced it.) Indignation of the Radicals ‘and Threatener} Impeachment of Judge Chase. The Radicals and the Chief Justice at Iesue ea the Question of the Right to Determ! ne @pen the Admissibility of Evidence=¥'be Chief Justice Sastained. WASHINGTON, March 31, 2868. The exception taken by the Senate to the attemy jt ‘of the Chief Justice to exercise the right to dete g- ‘wine upon the admissibility of evidence, and t'ne ‘revult of the private comference upon this diff er- etnce of opinion, are looked upon 28 a ‘iri- ‘amph for the Chief Justice. It is underst:joa at when the subject of tite preparation of rules for ‘the government of the Senate as a Court’ of Impe ach- ‘ment was uwuder comsideration a disposition was’ } ‘manifested to allow the Chief Justice, es presiding voMficer, very extensive powers of <decid- ‘mg upon questions of law anG evidence. ‘Before, however, the question was cono}usively fixed, wthe letter of the Chief Justice addressed to the “Senate disputing the power of that ‘kody to adopt ~the rules contemplated led to a new line ef Policy, im which it was thought necessary “to place some streng limitations upon the powers of the presiding officer. After this determi- nation the rule adopted ia the Senate provided that ‘the presiding officer may, in. the first instance, sub- mit to the Senate -without a division, all questions of evidence and incidental questions, but the same shall, on the demand of ane- Aith of the members present, be decided by yeas and mays, In this shape the rule stood to-day when the Chief Justice rapped Mr. Drake to-erder for interfer- er sug with the prerogative which the Chief Justice con- nats ae . Mas there Leen any chauge made in {t? A, No, | to arrange his private papers. the court chooses to object, it may be faken inthe | o¢ the constitution itself. ‘The constitution, he Sidvred reposed in uimself. Trial of President Andrew Johnson. si, i t Redirect examination by Mr. BuTLER—The remark } Dature of au appeal by one of the members of the | he “urged, provides that the enate shalt The casti vote given by the Chief tustice 1 esl ” Mr, BorLEn—Piease give mo a copy of the commis- | referred to by him in lus cross-examination that oc- | court. If I aim incorrect in my statement of the | nave the ‘sole pover tv ivy irmpeachments. ing gi yy the Chief Fuel Charged With High Crimes sion isstcd for temporary appointments since the | curred to him now and that he had not written } position of the presiding officer I would beg to be | wpe sole power” necessarily means, as the Senate n the metion of Mr. Wilson leading to i} § Henvre of OMce act. (fhe witness handed the | out, was from General Thomas to the effect that he will doubtless agree, the only po It includes corrected. “4 os it: that was what The CuHrer Justice—The Chair will state that a a aed Serie CONE LEAPADS;" Ne MYT under the rules of this body he ts the presiding of -¢ tion by Mr. STANBERY—Q, This | cer. He is so tn virtue o} ottice under the consti- ee eae words Tout know its materiality, | tution, He ts Ohlef Justice of the United States, and did he speak that word in the ordinary way? A. He | therefore, when the President {s tried by the Senate, spoke in the way [have mentioned; he sald he dia | ‘t is his duty to preside over that rend) and, as he not want any “unpleasantness.” Witness said this | understands, he is, therefore, the President ‘of the occurred inthe first part of the conversation before | Senate sitting as a Court of Impeachment, The rale General Thomas went to his room; had taken part | Of the Senate ls the seventh rule—(reading)—“The of the conversation before that; did not think it | presiding officer may, 1n the first instance, submit to everything pertaining to the wial and evcry judg- ment that may be made as a part of the trial, wi ther it be on @ preliminary question or on the fi question, [t seems to me tit the word was ineor- orated in the Constitution touching proceedings in Papesctment in the very light of long continaed ge gud practice of Parliament, Jt Is settled ia the very elaborate and exnaustive veport of the Commons of England on the Lords? Journal that the Private corisulcation gave rise to a lively contro- vei sy in secret session. ‘The ultra radicals were for adi ppting the moe? extreme meacuers and debarring thet Chief Justice from any power whatever, whiie the more calm sp'rits united with the democrats in a Pro position whiéh they considered might be taken as -@@ smpromise 1@ the important ditference which had 2208 ‘the printed part of this paper Was the part in use prior to the Tenure of Office act. A. It was. Q. Was any change made in the form of commis- sion? A. Yes. ie commission was read by the Secretary of the Senate, showing that tie words “during the plea- sure of the President of the United States for the time being” were s‘ruck out, and the words “unless and Misdemeanors. Fourth Day’s Proceedings. Unitep STATES SENATE CHAMBRE, Wasinxe7on, March 31, 1868, The Senate met at twelve o'clock, and after the presentation of a few unimportant petitions the chair e decide alt the questions of law and fact pn ang up. was vacated and immediately assumed by the Chief | this commission is soaner revoked by the President rial. the Senate, without a division, all eomtions of guid- See eetanion tise, ro rsa Lo a; My. Sumaer,in the private consultation, made a | Justice. of the United States for the time being” substituted. Mr, BIncHAM=—I sup) se it 1s not for the witness to | ance and incidental ayes ns. ie is not required |} that the Peers alone are the judges in ‘every case of vmot fon that sl! questions and rulings should be de- ‘about it. by that rule-to submit these questions ia the first | the iaw and the fact and that the Lord Chancellor The Sergeat-at-Arms made the usual :proclama- tion. At seven minutes past twelve the Managers and the members of the House were successively an- swear what he thong! = a as to the completeness or | instance, but for the despatch of business; as is usual the per ‘of the witness’ memory, it ls certainly | in the Supreme Court, he may express his opinion ‘materiai toknow why he omitted some parts and | in the first instance. If the Senate, who constitute Q. State whether before these ch: were made the official opinion of the Solicitor of the y was taken? A. It was, Q. Have youit here? A. Ihave. (Witness handed presiding is but a ministerial oilicer to ki order, to present to the consideration of ti Peers the various questions as they arise, to take oeided by the Senate, thus depriving the Chief Jus- tice of every power vested in him as a judicial ofi- a 2 the court, or any member of the court desires to ask e1 ore F eer. Upon this motion a vote was taken, which is | nounced and took their places. The counsel for the bay 9 = gryint Butler.) testified to others. » their judgment upon them. There his atcthority After a moment Mr. Butler said he withdrew the | Mr, BINGHAM withdrew the objection. the opinion of the Scnate as a court, it 1s his duty 1 stion is considered su wei :wega rded by many as a fair test vote. Mr. Sumner’s | President also entered and were seated. The gal- question. TESTIMONY OF J. K. MOORUEAD. then to ask for the opinion of the court. port ete Bh coca raed cmrgteas: pet. beak ie Bioti on was deciled in the negative by the following } Jeries at the opening were not more thaa helf filled. Q. Do you know since the alteration of this form James K. Moorhead, sworn on behalf of the Man- Mr. BUTLER—May { respectfully inquire whether | the law and finds a place in the institute of Coke, wote : Mr. WILSON, on behalf of the Managers, sald:—In | Whether any commissions have been issued signed | agers. Direct examination by Mr. Butler:— that extends to the Managers as to a question of law | wherein it is declared thatthe peers are the judyres Ay Cameron, Cattell, Chandler, Gonk- | continuation of the documentary evidence I now | PY,the President as altered? A. Yes, sir. Witness is a member of the House of Representa | to be submitted to this court? of the law aud of the facts, and conduct the whole tives; was present at the War Department on the The Cuter Justice—The Chief Justice thinks not; morning Saturday, bay gn 22, understanding | it is a matter for the court. that General Thomas was to be there that morning to Mr. BUTLER—Then it immediately becomes of very take possession of the Department; went there from | important and momentous substance, because the his boardinghouse in company with Mr. Burleigh, | presiding officer of the court, who is not a member of who, he understood, had some conversation with | the court and has no hand in the court, as we under- General Thomas the night before; Mr. Van Horn had | stand it, except et upon & question of equal di- correctly stated what took place; could corroborate | Vision, gives a decision which prevent the House the statement. of Representatives from asking even that the Objection by Mr. Cortrs. Senate shall pass upon it. Therefore, if this is the Witness proceeded to say that when General | rule, our hands are tied, and it was in order to get ‘Thomas went over to General Schriver’s room he | the exact rule that I have asked the presiding officer ‘was followed by Mr. Stanton and himself; Mr. Stan- | Of the Senate to state, as he kindly and frankly ton then pnt a question to General Sonia stated, the exact position. iow I say again— asked witness to remember it, which induced him to The Cuigr JusticE—The Chief Justice thinks it make.a memorandum of tt which he thought he still | right and proper for the Managers to propose any had among his papers; it was made briefy and | question they see fit to the Senate, but it is for tie roughly, but so that he could understand it:—“Mr, | Senate themseives to determine. Stanton—General Thomas, you claim to be here as Mr. BUTLER—As I understand it we propose a Secretary of War, and refuse to obey orders? Gen- | question tothe Senate; the Chief Justice decides we eral Thomas replied, I do, sir.” After that had | cannot get it decided without a decision of the Chief assed witness walked to the door leading into the | Justice, to which we object, respectfully as we ought, all, when he heard someth: that attracted his | irmly as we must. Now, upon the question of pre- attention and he returned; Mr. Stanton then | cedent, sorry I am to be obliged to deny the position said, “General Thomas juires the mails of | taken by the presiding oMicer of the Senate. I un- the department to be livered to him.’? | derstand that this is a question, the precedent for General Thomas, “I require the mails of the depart- | which has been settled for many years. Not expect- ment to be delivered to me, and I will transact the | ing the question would arise | have not at this ino- business of the office.” Witness then asked General | ment at my hands all tne books, but I can give the Thomas if he had made use of these words, and he | leading case where the question arises. If | am not assented and added, ‘‘You may make it as full as you | mistaken, it arose on the trial of Lord Stafford, in please.” That was all the memorandum witness | the thirty-seeond year of King Charles the Second, made; he made it at the time and place. and that the House of Lords had a rule, prior to the Cross-examined by Mr. STANBERR.Y—Witness had | trial of Stafford, by which the Commons were bound not made a memorandum of the number of persons | to address the Lord High Steward as “His Grace,” he found at Mr. Stanton’s office when he arrived | or ‘‘My Lord,” precisely as the counsel for the re- there, and could not remember all of them; there | Spondent think themselves obliged to address the were a number of members of Congress; he had seen residing officer of this body as ‘Mr. Chief Justice.” Mr. Van Horn and Judge Kelley there; had been there hen the preliminaries of the trial of Stafford were set- just about half an hour when Gencral Thomas came | tled the Commons objected that they, a8 a part of the in; saw him through the windows, which were open | Parliament of Great Britain, ought not to be called towards the White House, coming, somebody having | upon through their managers to address any indi- announced the fact; he came alone. vidual whatever, but that the address should be roceedings according to the law and usage of Par jament. itis as lunderstand this question as it ia presented here. I agree with my associate that it ts of very great importance, not only touching the ad- missibility of evidence, buc touching every other question that can arise. For exaimple, questions which may involve the validity and legality of any of the charges preferred in these articles. We under- stand that the question is whether the ute shall decide that the presiding oficer himseif, not veing a member of this body, which is invested with the sole power to try tmpeachment, and, tierefore, to decide all questions in the trial, can himself make a decision, which decision is to stand as the judgment of this tribunal, unless reversed by subse- quent mn Of the Senate, That we understand that to be the question submitted and on which tie Senate istorule, It is suggested to me by my associate (Mr, Butier) that this also involves the further pro- position that the Managers, in the event of such dect- sion being made by the presiding officer, cannot even call for a review of that decision by the Seuate. Senator WiLs0n moved that the Senate retire for consultation. Senator CONKLING and others—‘No, no.’ Senator SuBkMAN sent to the Secretary's desk a paper, which was read as follows:— IT ask the Managers what are the precedents in the cases of impeachment in the United States on the point? Did the Vice President, as presiding ofiicer, decide preliminary que Hons gr did He suumit thei, inthe Sirst instance, to the a Mr. BOUTWELL, one of the Managers, said—‘I am not disposed to ask the attention of the Senate further to this matter as a question concerning the rights of the House in proceedings of this kind. It seems to me of the gravest character, and yet | can very well understand the practical assertion en all b nee arising here of the principle for which the lanagers in behalf of the House stand would be calculated to delay the proceedings and very iikely invelve us in dificulty, What I say | speak with the es—Semstor: “Conness, Corbett, Cragit =e. L. M. Morrill, Morton, Ww art, Sumner, Thayer, Main: | apd Wilson-—22. Na ¥3—Sepvators Bayar o. Hes the President signed both the tem) anc a ent forms of the commissions as altered? A. Yes, sir, Q. Look at this paper last handed to you and state what itis? A. It is a commission tssued to Mr. Ed- mund Cooper as Aggistant Secretary of the Treasury. Under what date? A. 8d of November, 1867. . Who was the assistant Secretary of the Trea- sury at the time of issuing that commission? A. Mr. E. §. Chandler. Q. Do you happen to remember, as a matter of memory, whether the Senate was then in session? A. I think it was not. Q. State whether Mr. Cooper qualified and went into office under the first commission? A. He did qualify under the first commission. Q tis the second paper I handed toyou? A. It is a letter of authority to Mr. Cooper to act as As- sistant Secretary of the og Mr. Evarrs asked whether the other paper was considered as read ? Mr. BUTLER ey that it was. Mr. Evarts asked—When are we to know the con- contents-of those papers if they are not read? Mr. BUTLER stated that they were the same as Mr. Evarts responded—‘Well, let jt be so stated. We know nothing whatever aboat t! oh ‘The Secretary of the Senate read the commission of Mr. Cooper, dated November 3, 1867, which provides that he shall hold his office to the end of the next session of the Senate, and no longer, subject to the conditions prescribed by law. He also read the letter of authority, dated December 2, 1867, which recites that a vacancy had occurred in the office of the As- sistant Secretary of the Treasury, and that in the pur- suance of the authority of the act of Congreas of 1799 Edmund Cooper is authorized to perform the duties of the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury until a suc- cessor be appointed or such vacancy be filled. The examination was continued by Mr. BUTLER:— & How did Mr. Chandler get out of office? A. He resi Drake, Howard, Mo! ye, Pomeroy, Rams ipton, ‘Trumbull, “Wil- Buckalew, Cole, Davis, Dixo) 1, Doorttle, Kdmunds, Ferry, Fessenden, Pow- Jer, | trelizgbuyser, Henderson, Hendricks, Howe, Johns pn, McCreery, J. S. Morrill, Norton, J. W. Pat* Sesaon | D. T. Patterson, Ross, Shermaa, Sprague, ‘Van Wiinkle, Vickers and Willey—26, Afte. t some further debate Mr. Sherman moved 40 amend ‘the seventhrule so as to stand substantialiy the sau \¢ as it was:reported to the Senate by Senator Beware\. This motion was put to vote, and decided . ia the a (Mirmative by the following vote:. Aves--Sepaiers Cole, Corbett, Cragin, Bayard, Buckalew, Davis, Dizon, Doolittle, Edmunds, Ferry, Fowier, Fretinghuysen, Fesyenden, Grimes, McGreery, Henderson, Hendricks, johnson. J. 8. Morzill, L. Sin r ee D. T. Patterson, J. W. Patterson, jauisbury, Sherman, Sprague, Trumuil, Tipton Van Winkle and Willie!-31- i Nays—Senators Cameron, Cattell, Chandler, Conk- ling, Conness, Drake, Harlan, Howard, Howe, Morgsu, Morton, Nye, Pomeroy, Ramsey, Btewart, Sumner, Williams, Wilson and Yates—19. The:rule, as adopted by the Senate private session, allows the presiding officer in the first instance to give his opinion,.which may stand as the opinion of the court unless a Senator calls for the vote of the Senate on the question presented. This amendment to the rule stands as originally re- Ported by the Senate Committee; in view of the position taken by the Chief Justice in his letter, but was subsequently changed in the Senate to the form in which it stood to-day. offer a resolution passed in executive session in re- sponge to the message notifying the Senate. of the suspension of E. M. Stanton as Secretaryof War. The resolution adopted in the executive session of the Senate January 13, 1868, declaring that the Senate did not concur in the suspension of E. M. Stanton from the office of Secretary of War, was read and put in evidence, together with the orderwf the same date directing the Secretary of the Senate to com- Mmunicate an oficial and authenticated copy thereof to the President, Mr. Stanton and General Grant. Mr. WILSON then produced and offered in evidence am extract from the journal of the Senate in the executive session of February 21, 1868, showing the proceedings of the Senate on the message of the Piresident announcing that he had suspended Mr. » Stanton from office. Mr. Wilson also produced and ‘offered in evidence an authenticated copy of the ‘corumission of E. M. Stanton as Secretary.of War, staiting at the same time that that was the only com- mis sion under which the Managers claim that Mr. ‘Star iton had acted as Secretary of War. The com- oatseton is in the usual form, and contains a.provi- sign that Edwin M. Stanton shall have and hold the ofmfcc, with all the powers, privileges and. emolu- merits appertaining to the same, during the plea- sure: cif the President of the United States for the time being. It is dated June 15, 1862, and signed Abraham Lincoln. TESTIMONY OF W. J. M’DONALD. The first witness called by the Managers wae William ‘The radicals say that the rule as adopted was in | J, Mei xonald, one of the clerks of the Senate. Before igned. highest personal regard for the Chief Justice who t 7 . Have you a copy of his resignation? A. I havi Was he in way? A, No, sir; made to the Lords. A committee of conference | presides here, feeling that in the rulings he mi deference to a wish of the Chief Justice, who declared proceqding to examine him Mr. BurLer asked on ‘aot ~ a butte mgt I yas ne armed ee Arcaeg thereupon was jiad, and the rule previously adopted | make on questions of jaw and the adiissibility of if he were not sustained in his position he would be compelled to withdraw entirely from the trial as he did not wish to go before the country as ruled out in his action. The conservatives look at the result as a clear victory on their part, as the radicals, who expected to adopt the Sumner proposition, failed to make their point. The radicals are in a great state of excitement to- night. They swear vengeance on the Chief Justice, and say that if he does not conduct himself in ac- cordance with their views they will proceed forth- ‘with and institute an impeachment against him. It 49 understood that the Board of Managers will suggest some action to be taken by the House of Representatives to-morrow, and it is probable they will come before the Court of Im- ‘ Peachment with @ protest. The conservatives say they aro satisfied under the rule adopted to-day, and ‘that there wili be no further protraction of the trial. ‘SPECIAL CORRESPONDENCE OF THE HERALD, Andifference of the People to the Impeach- ment Trinl—How to Draw a Full House— The Unsseemly Haste of the Impeachment (| Managers. behalf 4S the Managers that the witnesses who were in attem, dance should be allowed to remain on the floor of ithe Senate. The Ca ier Justice intimated that they had better remain is\ the room assigned to them by the Sergeant- at-Arms «itil they were called. The wit 1e88 tga his aoe 2 bo left of the ra tary’s desh:, and wae sworn by the Secretary im the following 1 vords and with uplifted hand:— You doswe at that theevidence yon, shall in the case between the United ‘States hn- fon dhail be it wearuth, tke whole truth, and noting’ but the truth, #0 help ,vou ‘ane examtnation was conducted by Mr. Butler, as lows: juestion—f'tute your name and office? Answer. William J. Mo Donald, Ohtef Clerk of the Senate. . Look at this paper and read the certificate, which appears to be signed by your name. Witness read as follow: Orrio ® OF THE AECRETARY OF THE SrxaTT OF THE UNtt BP STATES, WASHINGTON, Feb. 27, 1863. tai 1 a rreaitrt ot he Uahed bles AS o Executive Ma oo, he'not belng present, about nine Wclock . M., on the 13th ol 7S wchomatn Chief © lerk of the Senate of the United States. Q. Is that certilcate @ correct one of the acts done? A. It is a correct certificate of the acts dope, and the paper wag left as-that certificate states tt was. . Read this certiticate. ‘itness reads as fc llows:— Orrick oF THE SECRETARY OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STAT RS, WASHINGTON, Feb. 27, 1868.! An attested copy of the foregoing resolution was delivered by me into the hands of th ¢ President of the United States, nt his office ‘2, yc tnd Mansion, ig) C3 eset P. 9 rUArY, 3. reer ane she Bennte of ths Oe hed thacse. Q. Do you make the same statement as regards this service? A. Yes, sir) the same statement. Mr. WILSON then read the resolutions of the Senate of Janu: 13, 1868, and b’ebruary 22, 1868, to the ser- vice of wich the last witness im testified. The resolution of January 13, 1, is that by which the Senate refuses to concur Jn the suspension of Mr. Stanton, and the resoluttom of February 22, 1868, igs that by which the Sena‘e Fesolves that under tke constitution and laws of the United States the Presi- dent has no power to remuwe the Secretary of War and to designate another 0; Neer to perform the duties ad interim. of that o1 . TESTIMONY OF J) W: JONES, The next witness called was J. W. Jones, whowas cca by Mr. Butler ~~ oe 2%, . our game ani . . W. Jones, keeper of the stationery ‘of the senate. & Satie co tno An Sina , er 01 je Lorenzo Thomaa, ‘Adjutant Generat of the United Statea Army? A. I do. Q How long have you known him? A. I hate th about bok Ly ere. 7 ere you em) yy the Secretary of Senate to serve on hi me notice of the proweedings Can you state from memory at what time his ation took effect? A. Ican not; it was a day or two before the appointment of Mr. Cooper. t ioe witness was cross-examined by Mr. CURTIS ag follows:— Q. Can yon fix the day when this change in the form of the commission was first made? A. I think it was about the fourth day after the passage of the act. * Q. With what confidence do you speak? Do you ak from recollection? A. I speak from the de- ‘sion of the Secretary of the Treasury on the subject, Which was given on the 6th of March. Then youwould fix the date as the 6th of March? 4. sir. ‘Senator Howarp again complained that it was im- Powsible for the Senators to hear the testimony. Mr. Curtis repeated it as follows:—The question wae for the witness to fix the date when this change in the form of the permanent commission first oo- curs. Q, Will you now state what that date was, according to your, best recollection? A. It was the 6th of March, 1867. TESTIMONY OF MR. VA0i HORN. wt Burt Van Horn was sworn on behalf of the janagers, Mr. PuTLER—Will you state whather you were pre- sent at the War Department when Major Lorenzo Thomas, Adjutant General of the Upited States, was there to. make demand for the office, property, books and records? A. J was. % When was it? A. Itwas on Saturday, the 22d ora Abour what time of day? A. Perh fe ut what e of day? A. Perhaps # few mipntes after eleven o'clock. February.of what year? A. 1868. » Who were present? A. (Reading) General aries H. Van Wyck,.ef New York; General G. M. Dodge, of lawa; Mr. Freeman Clarke, of New York; a. K Moorhead, of Pennsylvania; Mr. Colum- bus ‘Delano, of Ouio; ‘Han. W. D. Kelley, of Penn- sylvania; Hon. Thomas W. Ferry, of Michigan, and myself; the Secretary of Wer, Mr. Stanton, and his @ Please stase what place. A. The gentle. men mentioned and my: were ip the Secretary's office-—the office he usually oecupies'as Secretary of War; General Tomas came, apparently from the | President’, into the building ‘and cam when he came into the Secretary’s room he first said, “Good morning, Mr. Ltrs | good morning, gentlemen, ” the replied “(iood morning,” and | believe we all said “Good morn- ing;” then he began the converaation as follows (reading):--‘I am Secretary of War ad intertm and am orde: by the Presidemt of the United States to take charge of the office.’ Mr. Stanton then replied as follows:—“I order you to repair to your room and ercise your funcions as Adjutant General of the rmy.”” Mr. Thomas replied to this, “(1 am Secretary of War ad interim, and I shall not obey your orders, but I shall obey the orders of the Pi it, who has ordered me to take charge of the War Department.” Mr. Stanton replied to this, as follows:—“As Secre- tary of War I order you to repair to your place as dajatant General.” Mr. Thomas replied, “I will not so.” Mr, Stanton then said im reply to General jomas, “Phen you may stand there if you pleaae, but Witness here made an observation inaudible inthe | in the House of Commons was rescinded, reporters’ gallery, but which caused considerable | and the rule adopted and reported that in merriment on the floor. that trial (and it has obtained ever since in Witness resumed:—When General Thomas came in | all other trials) the managers of the House of he said “Good morning, Mr. Secretary; good morn- | Commons should not address the Lord High ing, gentiemen;” thought Mr. Stanton asked him if | Steward and should not ask anything of him, but he had any business with him; Stanton was some- | should address the House as “My Lords,” stows times sitting, sometimes standing: did not know | the reason and giving as a reason that the Lord Hig which he was doing when hespoke; thought he did \ Steward was but a Speaker pro — eee over not ask Thomas to take a seat, and that witness did | the body during the trial. When Lord Strafford came not take one; Thomas then said he was there as Secretary of War ad interim, appointed by the Presi- dent, and came to take possession; nothing was said before that, and Stanton sald, “f am Secretary of War, you are Adjutant Gen- eral; I order you to your room;” he replied that’he would not obey the order; that he was Secre- tary of War, and then retired to General Schriver'’s room; Stanton followed, asking witness to accom- pany him; did not know what he wanted him for; supposed he was going to have further conversation; Van Horn algo followed; thought there was somethin, unimportant in the conversation before what he detailed; could not remember it; it was joking or something of that kind to no purpose; they did not seem to be in any ion—not hostile; did not recol- lect any of the es that passed; left the room shortly after the remark that Mr. Stanton asked him to remember; had got back into Mr. Stanton’s room before that, and was pg hg Prvnatt Keen pthc eee whic! jought was impor whereupon Stan- ton told him he wanted him to rem: the remark ip.regard to the mails of the department, and that he (Thomas) wag there as Secretary of War; witness came out first from General Schriver’s room; Mr. Stanton remained but a vei it was then near twelveo’clock, and he and other members went to the Oapitel, leaving the rest of the company there; did not remember who staid—a number of gentlemen; could pot remember whether military or civilians; thought he had seen General Grant there during the morning, but did not while General Thomar was there; did not recollect of Thomas using the expression that he wished no unpleasant ness, Q. Did here appear to be any_unpleasantness? A. General Thomas wanted to get in, | think, and Mr. Stanton wanted to keep him out. . But there was og offensive on either side? A po Ms belligerent on cither side. . Was there any jokig in Mr. Sianton’s room as = 1 as in General Schrives’s.room? A. I don’t know, i. . No occasion for a laugh? A. It was more stern in Mr. Stanton's room; Mr. Santon ordered General Themas to leave, is Qa bg 14 the only thing that Jooked lke sternnese? » Yos, sir. ‘Re-direct examination by Mr. Batler :— Q, The President's counsel ‘ag asked you if on that oecasion he was armed; will you atiow me to ask if on that occasion he was masked? (Laughter.) A. He was a sir, 'RSTIMONY OF W. A. BURLINGT. Mr. Walter A. Burleigh was svorn om behalf of the Managers. Direct examination by Mr, ButLER:— testimony he would always be guided by that con- scientious regard for right for which he is distinguished; but after all I foresee that if the Managers here acting for the House in the case now before the Senate, and before the country, and acting, I may say, in behalf of other generations and of other men, Who unfortunately may be similarly situ- ated in future times, were now to make the surren- der of the right that the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, sitting here as the pre- siding officer of this body for a specitic purpose, and for no other, has @ power to decide even in @ pre- liminary and conditional way questions that may be vital to the final decisions of this tribunal on the questions of the guilt or innocence of the person ar- raigned here, they would make @ surrender which would in substance abandon the constitutional ous of the House of Kepresentatives and the con- stitutionat rights of the Senate sitting as a tribunal to try impeachmenta presented by the House of Representatives; ant with all defereuce | say that the language of the constitution, when the President of the United States is tried, that the Chief Justice shall preside, is conciusive on this whole matter. He presides here not as a member of this hody; for, if Unat were assumed, then the claim would be not only in derogation but in violation of another provision of the constitution, which concedes to the Senate the sole power of trying all impeachments; and | know of no language that can be used mor fetes in ite. character, more inclusive in its turns; it includes, as. we here maintain, all those men chosen under the constitution and representing here the several States of this Union, whatever may be their faults, what- ever may be their capacity, Whatever may be their interests, whatever may be their aMilatious with or to the a accused, sitting here as a iribunal to decide the questions under the constitution, with all the felicities ana with all the infelictties which be- long to the tribunal itself under the constitution, with no power to oY itin bo | ching and is exclusive—I say it with all due deference—of every other man, wiatever his station, rank or position elsewhere, whatever his relations to this tri- bunal. Under the constitution the Senate has the sole power to try all impeachments, and no person elsewhere can in any way interfere to con- trol or affect its decision or judgment in the slightest degree. Therefore, Mr. President, it must follow as a constitutional right that the Senate itself, without advice, as @ matter of right, must decide every inct- dental question which by any possibility can control the ultimate judgment of the Senate on the great question of the guilt or innocence of the party ae- cused, If under any circumstances the testimony of a witness b! be denied or may be admitted on the judgment of any person or of any authort = this tribunal, before which we here stand, eo party accused and impeached by the House of ba ph sentatives may be convicted or may be acquitted on authorities or by influences separate and distinct. from the judgment and opinion of the Senate itself. On this point I think there can finally be no difference of opinion, But, Mr, President, as one of the Man- agers, not having lad an Cg dd to consult with ly associates on that point, and speaking, with deference to what may be their jw ent the judgment of tne House, I should b oy willing to trial the House of Lords instructed him that he must address the lords and not the Lord High Stew- ard atall. From that day to the latest trial in Par- liament, which is Lord Cardegan’s case in 1841, the Earl of Card being brought _ be- fore the House of Lords, and Lord Chief Justice Denman sitting on that trial, the universal address has been, by counsel, ‘prisoners, managers and everybody, “My Lords.” There was to be no recognition of any superior in the presidin, officer over any omer member of the court, nor di that matter stop here. In more than one case this question has n. In Lord Maclesfleld’s case, if I remember right, the question arose in this way, “whether the presiding officer should decide ques- tions?” and he referred it wholly to the House of Lords, saying to the lords, “You may decide as you please.’ Again, when Lord Erskine presided at the trial of Lord ——, which was a@ trial early in this century, coming up with as much form as any other trial, and with as much regard for form ‘as for the preservation of decency and order, the question was put to him whether he would rule on points of law, and he expressly disclaimed that power. Again, in Lord Cardegan’s case, to which 1 have just re- ferred, before Lord Chief Justice Denman, upon a question of evidence in regard to the admissibility of @ card on which the name of “Harvey Garnett Tuckett” was placed, the question being whether the man’s name was “Harvey Garnett Phipps Tuckett” or “Harvey Garnett Tuckett,” Lord Den- man decided that he would submit it to the lords if the counsel desired to press the question; but the counsel did not desire him to settle it, But the other side went on to argue it, and when the Attorney General of England had finished his argument Lord Denman rose and apolo- gized for having allowed him to argue, and gaid he hoped it would not be taken as a precedent, but way. ing he did not think it quite right for him to inter- fere. And when, finally, the lords withdrew and Lord Denman was giving the opinion to the lords of the guilt or innocence of the party, he apologized to the lords for Eiving any opinion in advance, saying that he was only one of thein, as he was tndepenuent of his office of Lord Nigh Steward, and that his opinion was no more nor less than of theira, aod he had Mend spoken first because some- body must speak. He says, using this re- markable language:—" This Is not a ‘court and jury. You, my lords, exercise the functions of both judge and jury, and the whole matter is with you.” Now, then, in the light of authority, in the Jight of the precedents in which the presiding officer appeils, in the light of reason, in the light o: prinei- ple, we are bound to object, and this is not a mere question of form. All furm# we waive; but itis a question of substance; it is a question whether the WASHINGTON, March 80, 1868. ‘The great impeachment trial seems to have as- @umed the c\iaracter of @ well worn sensation ‘with the community here. It has been discussed and speculated upon in every conceivable light. Every possible turn that the trial can take and every imaginable issue that can be raised during ‘ fits progress have been conjectured and argued out to their logical coa'clusions. The public mind has become satiated, as it were, with the whole perplex- fing case, Had the tev al continued from day to day immediately after the President answered the sum- mons of the court the public interest would have found sufficient employnient in following up the pro- Q@ress of the case; but the delay that has ensued has afforded time for speevkating upon the different Movements of Managers ane| counsel, the nature of the testimony, the line of ar,"ument, the conduct of the Senate and the course that will be pursued by the Chief Justice, let the result of the trial be what may. By these means the excitement that would have been occasioned vy each fresit development has ‘deen, to a certain extent, anticipated, and the great trial no longer arouses that exciting interest thet manifested itself when impeachment became a fixed’ fact, and for a fortnight thereafter. the Senate? A. I was. you cannot act as Secretary of War; if you do you do ., What is your name and portion? A, My name | House of Representatives can get on its own mot jor myseif to proceed in the conduct 18 case on , _AFemarkable apathy has taken possession of the | /."‘Looking at this memorandum, when lid Ot | 80.8 Your peril.” Mr, Thomas replied ty this, +1 shail tn Walter A. Larieigh; 1 am aDelenens tom Deaste | to ine Bensee eae to at eon own Justice, | theunderstadding tiiat the right ig here and is now ‘people in regard to the trial. Everything that is | attempt to make the service? A. On the 2ist of Feb. | act aa Secretary of War.’ Thig was tie conversa- | Territory. Who 1s presiding, is to stand between the Senate an’ | solemnly asserted by the Senate for itself and as a tion inthe Secretary's room. Q. What happened then? A, After that tiey went to the room of General Schriver, opposite to the Secretary's room. written or printed in connection with it is read and all that is told about i is listened to with evident interest; but all those indications that denote the Q. Do you know Lorenzo Thomas, Adjutant Gene- ral of the United States? A. I do. Q How long have you known han? A. For several years; J don’t know how long. them, Jt i# & question of vital importance; but if i Was of mo tinportance } would not yield a hatr, be eause no jot or tittle of the rights of the House of Representatives sali ever fall to the ground by rua'ty, 1868, Q. ‘Where did yon find him? A. Ifound min at Marin‘l’s Hall masked ball. Q Wes he masked? A, He was, precedent for all its successors that every sey ese of jaw or evidence arising here is to be d by tae CONTINUED ON TENTH PAGE,