The Daily Alaska empire Newspaper, May 7, 1948, Page 3

FRIDAY, MAY 7, 1948 Full Report of Fac Finding Committee in Dispute Between Longshoremen, (Continued from Page Two) | Hendrickson: What is the near- est court that has jurisdiction? Guy: In San Francisco, The Court of Appeals. Newmarker: I think it would have to go to the Federal Court first and | then to a Court of Appeals. Moore (returns): The Act shows| a suit can be brought in any district | court. But it is stated that the| District Courts in Alaska are not Federal Courts—they are District Courts of the Territory. Guy: If we were certified both unions could file suit. Ninnis: Do you intend to get cer- tified? That I cannot tell you. | : And are there any certi- | fied unions in this town? | Nioore: I believe so. I think all the unions in this town are in pro-| cess of getting certified. | Ninnis: Guy, have you made any | attempt to get certified? Juneau Spruce (Mr. Robertson arrives). | Carter: We were teying to decide if the contract between the Juneau Lumber Mills and the longshore- men’s union is binding on the Ju- neau Spruce. Robertson: Strictly speaking, the courts here are not Federal courts. Formerly I took the position that the court here had jurisdiction. Mr Stabler and Mr. Banfield held that it did not. We wrote to Bob Bart- lett and he took it up with Norman Summers, Assistant General Coun- sel of the N.L.R.B. and Bartlett sent us a copy of a letter from him say- | ing that the Court of Alaska had the standing of a Federal Court in some instances. But that there is a serious doubt that it has jurisdic- tion in this case. The sections cov- ering this have been limited by amendments. Carter: I will bring you up to date on the situation. (states the posi- tion). Albright: But your recommenda- | ticable to plan for 4 or 5 hours work | know. Have you sufficient wharf space to stack a ship load on the wharf? Hendrickson: Have you to take it to somewhere else to store it? Card: We get an order for one or two different kinds. The orders we | have to fill do not take all the lum- ber that the sawmill produces and that not required on the order is put out in the yard to be picked up for shipment some other time. Hendrickson: Would it be prac- at a time for loading the next day Card: We can not do that. We load just a few pac ges at a time. We do not have the rcom Carter: That, Mr. Card, is what we want to clarif If you had enough space to assemble® lumber for loading a whole barge Card: No; we do not store a mil- lion feet of lumber. We have to | lumber and load it THE DAILY ALASKA EMPIRE-—JUNEAU, ALASKA shoes and do their work Carter: Is it not a fact that when the company took over that they held an election and your union became the sole bargaining agent? Gustafson: I cannot say; I was not here. Hendrickson: Can the company not use past practice as the grounds for what they are doing here, as they are doing it elsewhere? Gustafson: In my opinion that is still something that must be ironed out between the company and the longshoremen. As long as it is water borne cargo it belongs to the long- shoremen. Carter: That is not a continuous operation. They package a load of They are short of storage space. Gustafson: I know that and they not step into another organization’s | the contract is with the old com-|members who can drift pany { Hendrickson: Let's meet at 2:00} 1 wind it up. (The meeting € at 11:30 A, M) Meeting at 2:00 P. M., May 3, 1948 Present Mr. He My Mr Mr Mr Mr Carter to cla fact find want \vou the s shoremen? Albright think I had better, Carter: The Juneau Lumbers Mills is still in existence. Walther Ninnis Moore Newmarker There are a few more points We are here only as a committee. We only Mr. Albright, are sman for these long- put it on the barge to save storage Albright: Our contention is that store so much that comes out of the [ space. Could they not put one day’s | when a new company takes over a mill but is not ordered Carter: What is the cdpacity of a ! barge? Card! 600,000 feet work out and have it loaded the next day? Hendrickson: What if it is oniy ! a hour’s loading? I undertsand that Hendrickson: What is the capac- 1 they have to guarantee at least two ity of the steamship? Card: That depends on what space the steamship has free. Hendrickson: But whcot have yo. loaded? Card: Twenty-five to one hundred | thousand ft. But that does not enter into it. The longshoremen load that. hours work. Newmarker: How many feet do they handle per day? Gustafson: I am not in a position to say. for two weeks and there were three men there all the time. Carter: You are not in that de- At Ketchikan the longshoremen load on the scows. In Sitka the mill partment? Gustafson: No. Carter: Did not the men who load They had one barge tied up | contracts. on the a decision takes over ‘l plant There is | Cart {that. Read it (The decision of the N.LR.B. on | page 27 of these minutes is read to | Mr. Albright) Albright: Any kind of work that Carter: But the N.L.R.B. says that in the absence of any agree- ment between the employer and the union, the purchaser is not bound. Ninnis: Explain to him further about the Juneau Lumber Mills be- is let out must be perfomerd ae- | cording to the contract. . t elsewhere and find other work. Carter: Is there anything further? Guy: Why is this company--this company is trying to break those of .us who were here in this town for | years and years. Carter: The only answer is that the company has a contract with the woodworkers and they will not enter into any other contract un- | less they have instructions from the N.LR.B. to do so | Guy: The sawmill workers know that it is not their work. Wukich: This committee—is it going to try to arrange a meeting? Carter: No; the mayor has only asked us to find out the facts. Albright; No, it is not within the jurisdiction of the committee to bring the employer to meet us. Guy: If they claim that they need storage space thev could put a ship alongside to take it all Moore: How much could be load- ed on such a ship? | Guy: Six or seven thousand feet | in a few hours, Moore there room on the dock for a day's cut? Guy: For six or seven days’ cut. I( Albright: The difference in price | between shipping by barge and steamship is as follows: From Ket- | chikan by barge $9.00 per thousand; or by ship $5.00 per thousand and insurance. It is safer by ship. They consider that they do not have the dock space to store. That all of the THREE FEATHERS AN AMERICAN FAVORITE THREE FEAYHERS DISTRIBUTORS, INC. Empirs State Building, New York, U.S. A. ENDED WHISKEY, 86 PRO 652 GRAIN NEUTRAL SPIRITS £X-242-88 . W W ing still in existence. employees load it at the company | The Lumber Mills still dock. It is transferred to another cut cannot be loaded as only the | Guy: No. orders should be loaded. A good | | ticns are putting us in violation of package and sort? Carter: Who is the head of your | organization? | Guy: Harry Bridges is President. | Carter: That is all. If you have | any recommendations from us we will give you written copies. (They leave). Carter: T would like a little legal | advice. | i Hendrickson: Stabler is out of | town. I will phone Robertson. (He | does so). He is tied up and will | come over in half an hour. Would | you like to talk to Albright of the longshoremen’s union? He is town. Carter: Yes. Mr. Verne Albright, we have been trying to straighten this thing out. | (He reads the statement formerly | drawn up as regards the situation). Albright: This is correct but in- complete. This mill did employ long- sheremen under this same agree- ment. When & company buys out another they take over the con- tracts. ‘As to the jurisdiction of the IW.A. its President, Mr. Fadling in Portland, says all their contracts read: 5 tons and over shall be handled by longshoremen but small- er amounts by mill employees. There was no intention of the L.W.A. to assume jurisdiction over the load- ing. They planned to have juris- diction over all work covering the manufacture of the finished product of the lumber. The jobs on all contract in Alaska are for 5 tons and over from the last point of rest on the dock and the first point of rest when unload- ed on the dock. The L.W.A. never had any intention of assuming that jurisdiction. Carter: Kirkham said they want- ed the work at the time the contract was made. Guy: Kirkham and O'Day were working on the contract and Mr. O'Day told Mr. Hillman that Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Card wanted to put that in the contract to take the work away from the longshore- men. Albright: I do not think Mr. Fad- ling would have changefl his posi- tion. Guy: That showed us that if it was an old job it would go by pre- cedent but in a new job there is a new practice. Albright: If this were heard be- fore an arbitrator he would agree that we should have jurisdiction over all loading. If every company could do this the longshoremen would have no jobs. Carter: How about the men out of work? Albrighf: Then why don't they put the longshoremen to work? This man in charge of this mill is using these tactics to save money. Hendrickson: It hurts the whole town. Albright: If this went to arbitra- tion I am sure the longshoremen would be put to work tomorrow. We believe we could bring suit. Carter: What kind of suit? Albright: The reason labor does | in | (Albright arrives). | not like the Taft-Hartley Bill is be- cause there are two sets of rules. The Federal Government can take a union into court and fine it. Carter: We would like to take this into court. They claim our courts here are not Federal Courts. We want to advise the I.L.W.U. to bring suit to ascertain ‘if this contract is still binding on the Juneau Spruce. Albright: You know what that would cost? Carter: We want to ask the City Council to finance it. Albright: It would go to the Al-| aska Court, appeal to the San Fran- cisco Court of Appeals. Carter: They say this court has no jurisdiction. Albright: I think this is unrea- | sonable. I thing they should sit down and bargain. My oopinion is that the employer and the union | should get together. It looks to me | like a lockout by the employer. Some | of the longshoremen have income tax receipts of having worked for | | ber comes from the sawmill and has | ferent lots. There will be 2500 feet the contract. Carter: Mr. Robertson, what do vou think? Robertson: T am not in a position to give an opinion. I know nothing of the facts. However, I personally think this court has jurisdiction. The filing of a suit to find out if the court has jurisdiction would cost very little. Carter: The Juneau Spruce said that they would abide by any de- cision handed down by the court (Robertson leaves). Carter: What has your union to gain? Albright: This is only a begin- ning. Carter: The Juneau Spruce has an agreement to raise wages. Guy: The men here are getting | underpaid from what is being paid in the States. Albrighi: Why can't this mill op- erate like other mills in the Terri- tory? Other mills hire longshore- men. If we picket they will close up sooner. If we took it to court he would not abide by an adverse decision. Hendrickson: We are only trying to come to a settlement. Albright: I have known operators who have shut down for long peri- ods to get their own ends. Carter: Then your organization would not consider . . . Albright: Yeu say the man will not negotiate Carter: Only if you are certified. Guy: The employer has to nego- tiate with us whether we are cer- tiffed or not. Hendrickson: Is there any way you can speed up the NLRB.? Albright: It will probably take a year or more. Carter: I guess that will be about all. Albright: We will try to negotiate as long as you want. The employer is the man who will not negotiate. (The union men leave). Hendrickson: However, situations are changing and things are a little | better than they used to be. Moore: There is a simple solu- tion: Why have the woodworkers done the work? Why do they do the work? If they refuse . . . Carter: There is nothing more we | can do today. We will meet at 10:00 | A. M. on Monday. Make copies for all of us of a boiled down version— a condensed version of the minutes. (Adjourned at 4:00 P.M.) Meeting at 10:00 A. M.. May 3, 1948 Present: Mr. Charles Carter Mayor Waino Hendrickson Mr. J. Newmarker Mr. E. E. Ninnis Mr. Thomas J. Moore | Carter: We have heard nothing | further regarding the charges you| filed. Have you heard anything? Card: No. The regional director | says he has not forwarded his| récommendations to Washington yet. Carter: There is one ‘point we want clarified here; that is, your manner of loading company barges. Is that continuous or intermittent? Card: Both. We have an order for 400,000 feet that is divided into 16 lots on that order. Each load is kept separate and identified by dif- ferent bands. This is inspected and tallied. The inspetcor’s certificate is like a check and you can take it to the bank and cash it. The lum- to be sorted and put into the dif- in each package which is banded and then assembled and each Iot placed by itself. The same men who band and package it, load it. When 2 or 3 lots are assembled they are loaded. Then the men come-back and sort and package again, so it is intermittent. Ninnis: Could the sawmill operate and work with longshoremen? Card: T don't know how you mean that? Ninnis: Could the sawmill make | dock and there is loaded on DCLs by longshoremen. Hendrickson: The longshoremen load the scows at Ketchikan? Card: Yes. Newmarker: We know there is not enough room to store the lumber. Carter: It has to be loaded piece- meal. Ninnis: We are only trying to get the victure. Card: We only want to know if we have to recognize longshormen We are not bargaining with them because we have a contract with the mill employees. And treating with the longshoremen would vio- late that contract. We are not con- sidering the cost. We do not have to consider costs but only if we have ¢o bargain with them. Carte! Have you anything to suggest as to how the NLRB could be speeded up? Card: We are doing to speed it up. Ninnis: Could this committee do anything to help? Card: If you publicize the facts. I would not want to advise the com- mittee to do anything bevond their purpese and try to do too much. Moore: The dispute has to be set- tled by the parties. Carter: This committee intends to do nothing but find out the facts and put them before the public. There is no thought of making any recommendations or to put any pressure on either party. Hendrickson: way the committee could speed up the deal we would do it. But we feel we have no right to force any- thing. Card: I think a fair statement of the facts, released to the public, will do as much as anything io speed the matter up. You gentle- men have been taking my word as to whether a company has or has not to take over the contracts of a company which it has purchased. Here is the decision by the N.L.R.B. dated December 2, 1947: “Herman Lowenstein Inc., Gloversville, N. Y., all we can Adirondack Leather Workers Union | and International Fur and Leather Workers Union of the United States and Canada, Local 202, C. I. O.— Therefore, in the absence of any evidence of a express agreement either written or oral by the em- ployer to assume the bargaining agreement between the CI.O. and the prior owner of the plant, we find that the employer is not bound by any existing bargaining agree- ment between the prior owner of the plant and the C1.0.” The CI.0. contended that the present owner | was the successor to the previous owner. The employer made no at- tempt to assume any obligations for the previous owner. We only bought the plant and equipment. There is still in existence the Lumber Mills company which is now in process of dissolution. Hendrickson: And the-contract is still with them and not with your company? Card: We did not purchase the Juneau Lumber Mills Company, only some of its assets. Carter: I think I can assure you that this committee is net going to stick its neck out and try to do anything it<should not. Card: I appreciate the time you folks are putting in. I think you are entitled to credit. (He leaves). Hendrickson: Do you want to see the recording secretary of the I. W. AR T . Carter: What do we want to find out from the secretary? Ninnis: Let's talk to the secretary and send for the longshoremen while we are talking to him. Hendrickson: Do you want them here together? Ninnis: No. Hendrickson: here. Moore: The secretary is the one who is informed. Carter: Let's have him in. (Mr. Gustafson, recording secre- ‘The president is the company. I have the contractia wvrofit with the longshoremen |tary of the I.W.A. comes in). here. . ' Carter: All that was shown us was a letter from' Rutherford. Albright: The contract states that when you go into court the contract is violated. Carter: Then how should this be . settled? Albright: By arbitration. i They say that they don't want any- .| they are called back? loading? Card: I have not gone into that. thing beyond the bull rail. Are they going to be standing around wait- ing for a load and getting paid? Or are they going home to wait until Carter: That is what we want to Carter: We have been checking further on this. Any contract with the seller does not bind the purs chaser. Read the decision. (The above decision is read to Mr. Gus- tafsony. Gustafson: That hardly clarifies another point. Past practice. Re- gardless of the contract. If there was any| We can- i | Gustafson: I don’t know. | Moore | carried to the dock and then load- ed. | Gustafson: It is packaged first and then brought to its last resting place on the dock. Carter: Ycu know they are short of space? | Gustafson: I do know that. | Carter: And that this method is to save space? | Gustafson: I understand that very | well; it saveg them a lot. | carter: They have not enough warehouse space? Gustafson: I agree there; there is a limited space for operation. |can see why they do it, but why rcan’t they work out an agreement with the longshoremen? | Carter: They claim that not over 125% of a day’s run could be loaded ,on a barge and that the rest has | to be stored. And when they have | sufficient on the dock, it is loaded. | Ninnis: Are the majority of the i members in favor of loading? Gustafson: Not to load. Ninnis: That is a well fact? | Gustafson: The first night we | voted there were only a few at- tended. The management suggested we have another meeting and they let the night shift off to vote. There were 200 members there golid and they voted against loading. We | are not fighting the company and | we are taking it on the chin. We can not even get Unemployment , Compensation. I went to see Mr. | McLaughlin and he ruled against us. We appealed but the appeal will go against it. He based his decision on precedent in cases in | Washington which arose for the isame reason: that they would not go through a picket line. Our boys will not go through & picket line. 1f we do go through that will nui- lify our bargaining right. We will be two separate unions fighting for the same work. Ninnis: Doesn't the management understand this? Gustafson: Yes. The company said they would let us off to vote but when the vote went against them they made Us make up the time. Moore: Mr. Gustafson, your jur- isdiction extends to where? Gustafson: To the last place of rest of the finished product. Moore: Where do you understand that to he? Gustafson: If it is rough lumber and set on the side of the dock, it is finished. Ninnis: If they wanted to trans- port it to warehouses, how would you handle that? Gustafson: If they could prove it was for storage, I think we could do it. Carter: But are those barges not used as storage? Gustafson: But these barges are moved. They pull out of there. Moore: As soon as the barge moves it becomes interstate com- merce? Carter: Is there any other ques- tion? Newmarker: No. Hendrickson: We want to clarify the barge status. Gustafson: We hate to give up any jurisdiction but it is their work. Ninnis: How is an election held? Gustafson: The first one was written ballot. Moore: It has to be a secret bal- lot. Gustafson: But at the second meeting we stood up. Our president offered the boys another meeting but they. said “no.” We voted and there is no need for voting again. Ninnis: Then how can the long- shoremen ever become a bargain- ing agent? Moore: They do not have to be- comé certified to become a har- gaining agent. They only have to be certified to use the N.L.R.B. Ninnis: Then why don't the long- shoremen get certified? Moore: It has to start with their headquarters and then come down to the local. (Gustafson leaves). Carter: What next? Moayre: Let’s get the longshore- men this afternoon. Carter: What are we going to ask them? Moore: Point out that the old company is still in existence and known It is packaged and Lhenl I exists as a company. Albrilght: But the new company {bought the plant and took over the i operation of the business. Ninnis: If the Juneau Lumber Mills still exists your contract is with them. Carter: We are trying to get your _reaction to this case. Albright: I think if we read all the facts in that case we would find it is not a parallel situation. There might be some particular reason that caused this decision. In my experience when any new company comes in they take over the old contracts. Carter: The company says that they did not take anything over but the plant and equipment. They did {not take over the assets and ac- counts receivable of the company nor any of the contracts. Albright: If we had the complete case we might find the reason for this decision. Carter: There is another point we want to clarify. The company claims that during the process of loading, as storage. The loading is intermittent and not continuous work. When they have an order they package the lumber and use the scow as a storage space, Albright: They claim that float- | ing equipment is storage space? It | would be cheaper to have the long- shoremen load. It is something | that they have interjected. It would not stand up in an arbitration case. ! Carter: We just want you to ! know. We still understand that you consider the work from the bull rail to the boat is your work, for fne longshoremen, and that is part | of vour contentien and not only the | old contract? Albright: We think the old con- tract gives us jurisdiction and that we have jurisdiction under the | Maritime Code to do this type of work. I think their argument is! irrelevant. I am being frank. Carter: We are just trying to bring out the facts. If we ask some questions that are irrelevant you can answer or not as you like. Any further questions? All: None. Carter: Well, boys, I 'think we understand both sides and you have been very helpful. We are anxious to have this settled. However, we are not telling you what do do. We are just trying to find out the facts. Albright: Was it the company’s idea to bring suit? Carter: No.'it was my idea. Albright: The lawyer said there was a serious doubt as to whether this court was qualified. If we had dene this, even if the City Council | paid the costs, the company would (ile & demurrer and the case wou'd be right back where it is now, but it might have looked as if the union and the company had connived. Carter: That was not the sugges- tion of the company. Hendrickson: We only thought the court might give jurisdiction. Albright: The union would have been stupid to put themselves in that position. Hendrickson: I have had phone calls, even from the loggers in Ket- chikan. It is going to bust all of them. Albright: The longshoremeén has only a few hours work a day. If this case is settled the company will have to pay every day of wages that has been lost. If the company has good lawyers tl&ey know where the pressure is coming. On the £yppo. loggers. Hendrickson: I understand the wages are the best on the Pacific Coast. Albright: It will not cost the com- pany anything. They will only be paying the same money to the long- shoremen instead of to the LW.A. men. I know this company some years ago held qut for a while and bust all the gyppo loggers in the area, Hendrickson: The company says it is only a question of whom they will bargain with. Albright: I think this is a subter- fuge to cover up something else the company is trying to pull. Carter: Nothing like that has come out. Albright: The pressure is coming on the little contract loggers, not on the, longshoremen or the IW.A. | these barges are to be used, | lumber gang will handle 100,000 feet in ten hours. With the new | gear up to 25,000 feet per hour, Hendrickson: They claim the con- tract they have with the LW.A, Al | Fadling, President of the LW 2s the contract does nct cover t work. { Moore: The T.W.A. has lost their | right to protest by publishing that | this is not their work and also by respecting the picket line | Hendrickson: How do you supply | men? Albright: We have regular ship | gangs. We get together with the | company and figure out how many i men are needed, that constitutes a gang. This works out through a mutual agreement with the com- | pany. | Ninnis: What is a gang? Albright: Ten men on a ship for | | general cargo. For barge lumber | on a scow it differs to meet condi- ( tions. The company and the union meet and mutually agree on the required number of men for the job. Ninnis: All your contracts now ‘n | force have this arrangement? What | is the minimum number of men? | Albright: All the men requested by the employer, In Ketchikan the ' agent for the ship says we want 30 men. | Ninnis: What is the minimum | number? Like for the Estebeth? | Albright: Even one man. | Wukich: Usually on the Estebeth | we get two men. ! Carter: Any more questions? | (The meeting adjourned at 2:50 P. M) { - NOTICE After May 10, no telephone rentals for the menth of May will be accepted at a discount. All remittances must bear postmark of not later than discount date. Please be prompt. { JUNEAU AND DOUGLAS =SEATTIE S ALMOST A SUBURB _ «..by Pan American Clipp ® only 4; ly dinne, fo I;realrfasl fro m NOME * only breakfast 4 dinner from I‘Mkm o only an afternoon from ... . J“Hflu G TTING AROUND ALASKA is easy. And quick, too. Flying Clippers take you where you want to go—from Nome clear to Seattle—on frequent, regular schedules. And you'll feel at home aboard the big, dependable Clippers. The food and service are world-famous. 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