The San Francisco Call. Newspaper, April 8, 1900, Page 4

THE SUNDAY CALL. S e g e e DN e TSR TR RS T of making Happy home ——Vdiscussed by married men @mm F AT DA A A AT AT AR kA R Ak Jhe Persons &Sho Jook Par in the Conversation. *0 Club Woman. MRS. ALMON HENSLEY President of Society THE HON. CHARLES H. TRUAX, Justice o or the Study of Life. the Supreme Court. 8 privileges and attaches a much higher fmportance to himself than the child aid my boyhood. He is less independe: as he expects to be taken care of. How do ¥ ount for that? Professor Giddings—T think that as fast as a people acquires wealth and leisure it allows itself to get soft in a good many ways and to lose a good many of the vir- tues of Independence and hardthood which sed In its earlier days. That is a - general explanation. I do not know that I am prepared to give a detalled ex- nation. w, Mrs. Hensley, you heard Professor s make the point that a woman en- gaged In work outside the home—assuming has children in addition to the or- dinary duties of the household—cannot care for the home as well as the woman of a generation ago, who had no outside dutles. it posse that ¢ Rights and Duties— S &2 Does it affect the home case of a man an? as much as it does in that of a Wo- in the admit th fore the question arises whether, grant- ing that the strain of modern life is in- evitable with the increase of competition to which men must be subjected in mak- ing a living for the gained anything by portunities to women and so extending all that frightful competition. Have we galned anything? Mrs. Hensley—There is one very impor- tant point that ousht to be considered, and that {s the effect of this change upon the child. We must think of him in every consideration of the home, It 18 certalnly true that the average wo- man gives less time to her home than for- fam »ening ‘all these op- not see why she should put anything else before that, There 1s one thing that suggests itself to me in this discourse on the birth rate. Is the decrease due to the fact that marriages oc- cur later in life than they did formerly? Professor Giddings—Yes, that is a very fmportant reason. Is the late marriage & good thing for the home life? Mrs. Henslev—Later marriages are not "a good thing. In late marriages is the home life better? Are people apt to be more happy? Mrs. He —Personally T think not. T think that early marriages are natural and desirable. Judge Tru: ‘The entrance of women into b an effect in reducing the birth You will notice that of the women in business very few ave fami) They cannot afford it Snuppose that a woman is a stock broker. She cannot afford to have children, be- cause she might be busy with the children at the very time when her whole fortune was at., ce. Tren this fe a particular in which the home has ed from modern conditions? Mrs. 1 Sorhaps 0. yes. Judge ifr woman making $10,000 r own efforts, I do not is by manual or mental effort, she is not going to run the risk of putting herself in a position to lose the opportunity of making that income. She will sacrifice the duties of home for the money, or it may be for her professional or artistic success. There is bound to be an Interference between the two rival interests, and the home is the one that is lkely to suffer. We were speaking of physical degenera- tion. Do you not think that intelligence is increasing? Professor Giddings—It 1s perfectly pos- sible for intelligence to Increase in bodles that are on the whole weak and sickly. It is impossible for intelligence to increase the running of the house without any in- terference from the husband, and that the husband In like manner shall always be the final judge, though naturally asking and desiring the advice and the sugges- tions of his wife, as to any point of bu ness that affects his income or his prof sional duty or anything of that sort. Now that is a division of labor that will g0 a long way toward making a happy home. Then there is one other thing, and that is that it will be a pretty hard struggle to make a happy home if the breakdown of the wife and mother is constantly stand- ing before the household as a specter. If she is constantly overdoing it iIs pretty hard for those engaged about her to be happy. I have been engaged in’the col- lege teaching of bdth men and women for nine years. One observation that I have made is that women give out much earlier than men do, because they have not the same healthy instinct of when to stop that a man has. A gir] gets so interested in her work or examination that she keeps right on when it would be better for her to let up a little, as the boy would do. Mrs. Hensley—Apropos of something you said just before that, is it vour opinion that women are going out of the home too much? Does not a woman, by excluding herself from the world, by do fcating herself too much, Interfere with the hap- piness of the home? Which is the worse Professor Giddings—I don't know that I could say which is worse. One W the error of the past gemeration. the other Is the error of this generation. Both are extremes. Mrs. Hensley—One point that you made when you were speaking of your experi- ence with college boys and girls is inter- esting. You say that the girl is apt to lay too much emphasis upon detall rather than upon getting a good general idea of things. Is that, in your estimation, a feminine characteristic—that lack of per- spective? Professor Giddings—I used the word de- tall with reference to her specific interest in special detalls rather than her perfect and systematic grasp of all detalls. I should say that women are far more fond hen a man and a woman agree to ness. cree marry they enter into a contract. We will not say anything about sacramental mar- ioge: feve at. They riage; I . promise to do certain thin nd 1f they er is a llar. ) not do them one or the ot ¥ 'rn:lyjtdn not keep their piedges. .\«w". men and women ought to have a cP.r’(. - stanchness of moral fiber and strength O character to meet their pledges, to Vo what they sald they would do. On t contrary, in cases, when thing s wrong they go all to and simply aet like chil more, they often con ir wits’ end to try A ding. Finally > for the gre comes only by duties and cares sort of love t ey are In love is wi stant an 1 an old we many year broken by th: with him for twenty- is something one c ader kind of affection is worth whil ' s man goes out and shoots himself of & woman goes and takes poison because dis appointed in love in the ordinary sense, they are not fully developed human be- sternness of grown man- ings. They lack a certal fiber which is essentfal to fu hood_or womanhood. Do you think, Judge Truax, that it would Dbe & good thing for divorce to be made eas- fer by granting it for other causes thaa adultery? Judge Truax—I do not think it should be allowed for any other cause. No other grounds are recognized in the State of New York, and I think that we have an excellent divorce law. If you look up the matter you will find that there are com- paratively few divorces In the State of FRANKLIN GIDDINGS, Do you agree? merly. The question Is whether she doss at an extraordinary rate in the existing New York. of generalization than men. They are far gy m 3 Mrs. Croly—When people marry they s -3 o . . SR A = 1d not care POt accomplish more for the home and for generation, except at the expense of fu- more fond of a nice system of thought. - 4 t Professor of Sociology, Columbia University. Professer (Uilnge Sl SN AD o e e, o ture generations, It fs like the case of They are a great deal more deductive in face & new condition which is & very ETeas for it in the same way an " Mrs. Hensley—She accomplishes more cities that borrow ‘money ad lib. an@ al- tnefr method of thought and a great deal test of fh-‘"}“"-““f‘,s it Thet A REPORTER FOR THE CALL-HERALD desrce. et me make that Just a little bIt for the home by spending less time there. low their descendants to pay it. I would Jess inductive than the men. Women care Off at the first little disugresment A% acer e e s R clearer. The woman of a generation 8g0 That h to emphasize. But Iike to_say that pretty nearly my whole more for definite reasons and facts than makes its appearance, &s do the Malorey p - had eat many duties. She worked in consideri he duties . philosophy on this subject 1d be sum- al supposi- © se who s orce. T e e e i gr y = in considering the duties of hoth mother philosophy subject cou men do, contrary to the general supp N i ot v o rd, assuming now that was a and father to the child it is worth while med up in the statement that the multl- tjon. Another common fallacy is that men Croly—T. do not sor Giddings, agree with know that v man not only o man would upon now. it she owns were in the habit of sit- » alone and eating ever was fur- wife and the whatever to ts n her prop tthey wanted of what e that there has been a ck ty or fifty vears. Has this boring class. man furnished his w * was furnished or two and sixper d for one day between m that was spent nges in the law benefit and pr The -change that that the home 1 s taken place shows has been left a¥on of rights t rights | ove that m nts in this city, far more numerou almost abject ser wife and the daughters € poorer tenements to-day 1 1 ever saw among poor people in my 1f we compare the same classes 1 think it true that men and children gen- more waited upon to-day than > thirty years ¥—1 do nét think that is so but an equalizatio: part of the ngs—An equalization I think we ; but when you say, I think you wrongly duties in this world as of between between adv r Giddings—Well, as T observe and their behavior, t I am well acquainted with them with the lives of chil- boyhood. T find that the child 11 He expects or him. He demands more At the present time men as the law is concerned. dren in my e 10 be don and other causes; but I understand from the medical men who make a specialty of nervous diseases—and we ascertain the same thi from statistics—that nervous ises are Increasing relatively to pop- ulation—that Is, increasing more napidly than population. Mrs., Hensley—Is there any larger pro- portion of women who are suffering from nervous diseases than of men? To what cause do you attribute the increase in women? Profesgor Giddings—I attribute it to the fact t woman is confronted with vastly increased opportunities and that the effort 10 improve them brings upon her a great strain. Mrs. Hensley—If that is your position, then truly you are maligning nature. When she created us with strong. healthy bodles did she intend that the brain should be left idle in order that these bodies should be wholesome and strong? Profesgor Giddings—I am sure I do not know what nature may have intended. Mys. Hensley—I beifeve I know. I am sure that it is not a question of our men- tal growth at all if .we are becoming a prey o nervous diseases. It is the woman who does not so arrange her time that an get the full amount of good from each one of these opportunities who gives way under the nervous strain. It is the woman who is flitting from one thing to another. Professor Glddings—My observation shows that it is just the other way about. It is not the unsystematic woman who is the sufferer from nervous diseases. It is the systematic woman, who goes about thin, s in t most methodical way, and » is methodical thinks that she can do everything under the heavens, and never stops. = an fmportant point. If women are healthy than they were a generation nd are less capable, or perhaps have less opportunity, of caring for the home, it is something that directly and very serl- ously affects the race. No, is it true that women are less healthy than they were? There is certainly & great increase of ner- vous diseases. Mrs. Crcly—There are three men with nervous complaints to one woman who is so0 afllicted. In sedentary occupations, you will find a larger proportion of fem in the birth rate, Then, finally, We know that along with a large proportion of females in the birth rate goes a tendency toward a large number of changes, which are lumped un- der the slang word, ‘“degeneration.” I will not say this as a necessary fact. 1 will not raise the question of causation at all, because we do not know enough about it to settle that question. Now, these things we know, and that is all. Mrs. Hensley—Is it true of the world generally or of one particular class, that wherever there is a preponderance of girls born there is an accompanying pre- ponderance of degeneration? Professor Giddings—Those are the com- munities that show the phenomena of ef- feminacy or degeneracy on the whole. In other words, the hardy and enduring peo- ple have on the whole a larger proportion of males in the birth rate. Mrs. Hensley—The hardy and enduring people have dy and enduring mothers necessarily. I want to remove the stigma that seems from your remarks to attach itself to womanhood. Professor Giddings—I do not mean to fmply that a marked increase in the birth of girls necessarily has the effect of de- generacy. I mean to say that the two things in a general way go together. Have you any opinion on this subject? Professor Giddings—None that I am pre- pared to express. Judge Truax—Professor Giddings has touched upon an important matter in ref- erence to the decreasing birth rate. The more women there are in business the fewer children there will be in the world. You may invent mdchines that will do the household work and you may invent ma- chines that will take care of the children after they are born, but vou cannot get any machine to take the place of women in bearing children. P Iy 1 do not believe that in make as great a succe: v other profession as she can in that of being a woman. There is no objection to her taking up any kind of work that she can do, but it seems to me that the work of b wife and mother is the grandest work in the world, and it is the work that woman alone can do. There she has no competitor. I do Hensley—But progress has taken 's work away from the home. What would she do without outside inter- ests? Mrs. Croly—There i3 plenty of work in the home still. There is work to be done besides making candles and preserves which never should have been made. 1 have seen homes and I know homes that are 1st bits of paradise, and that is be- e the woman Is there ana because the man appreciates and values the woman and the home. Do you think, Mrs. Croly. that the home is suffering by this movement? Mrs. Croly—I think it is suffering, but I think that the process is one of evolu- tlon that could not be prevented or avoid- ea. I have been a working woman for fifty veors and directed a home during the whole of tkat time, and I know that I have seen all sides of this question. I have felt that my children would suffer and did suffer from my absence. What do you think is essential for a happy home for a woman? What makes a happy home? Mrs. Hensley—A comrade or chum for a husband; freedom for herself absolutely and children whom she can rear in the way she thinks best. What do you think is essential in the hus- band? Mrs. Hensley—The same thing, to be sure. Professor Glddings, will you give your 1deas on that? Professor Glddings—Of, course, I agree that the first essential is the one that Mrs. Hensley named first—a wife who is a comrade. Secondly, I should say* children who are a pride and a comfort. Third— coming down to the material and prac- tical side of the thing—there must .be a certain natural and spontaneous agree- ment between husband and wife on prac- tical questions. If they have got to come to an agreement as the result of too much argument and negotiation it takes a great deal out of life. There is probably no one thing that will conduce so much to that cnd as an understanding between husband and wife that the wife shall have a defi- nite income or a definite allowance, and be solely and absolutely responsible for nterest th women have in the various depart of thefr nomes. Thr club associa- tions a wo to do vin things that she did not know before, and her home becomes a T £ tnter- est to her. She | s how to dn th because she is told e other wom She finds out new ways of doing and of making her home life more : by bringing outside eiements into it. [ have made a long study of home life so far as the clubs are coucerned. ticed that ninety-five per cent of the mem- bers of the women's clubs are mar There Is one tnter s not touched upon ye tion of divoree. cently as saying. ap amendment to the marriage State, that he believed tha be made more difficalt and divorce casler Mrs. ‘Croly—I do rot bei at all. Mrs. Hensley—Do you belleve that the man and the woman who have be distasteful to each other should remain to the end of their lives living in the kind of atmosphere that mutual dis agreement must create? Mrs. Croly—I do not belfeve that eve In divorce come the man and woman who have made mistaken marriages, who have children perhaps, have any right to charge their own mis- takes upon the shoulders of the commu- nity. I do not believe that the woman has any right to deprive her children of a father. nor the mar any right to de- prive them of a mother. In regard to the man and woman who have made one mis- take, there is no certainty that they would not make another if they had the chance. T think, from all that I have n of the hundreds of people who tr: together again after tiey have vorced, that the very best t as well as for the community is to aceept the situation and accustom themselves to it in the best way they can. Professor Giddings—I think that the in- crease of divorce is not only an evil itself but that it is an indication moral weakness most hum vorce shoufd be regarded exactly as bank- ruptey in business is rega —as a most humiliating confession of moral weak- I have no-" ; ; ] ¢ ; ; = - to ask whether we are deriving sufficlent plication of opportunities for women is somers than women. I should married life. It does not seem to be that 7 ho are interested in the problems of modern society ~ m“", ':o:,: .f,;f‘;:: ;n:i?:, T:T,kh 0:0',‘,?0 benefit from the im‘gxxrn‘\lid Ao 3¢ dlieraliy's big rmawmg on the future. Our :;r«(;bzer::fzr:?men are far more likely to men and "“:"."aha",‘.”;,"f:;l ffi,?‘f:: ostions of the day is that g vat many duties M0dern life to justify us in handing down children will Have to pay a big price for reason correctly from fallaclous premises, the P"_“'J“‘;“”L“‘ll il e oo B H £ e education: EAeSEE - NIt ¥ to our children certain nervous tendencies - it. and men far more likely to reason badly their hysterical ¢ “strength of mind of the char bands in domestic life. was a hard-working woman: but llfe. ,ng iy subjecting them to a home at- Mrs. Croly—T quite belfeve it. from correct premises, the results being &S You sa. > h RONUETN. &5 it The 5 P ¢ : - vhole did not make as many de- mosphere which must be altered for the Mrs. Hensley—But in what way, Mrs. equally objectionable. enough to look at ‘~"~j; e 4 rgn of wives and husbands s upon her as it makes on a woman worse to some extent by the condition of Croly Judge Truax—I am not convinced ma; see if they cannot fir:;;v;,»- ¢ .’5&;::121 s th = a e thi. tartii »artly because s! ot have the parents, due to their overstrain. Mrs. Croly—I think It is the result of women are better reasoners than men. Marriage is a st bo 157 but perhaps we can use this as ‘a starting e I‘?r\)?l_,'u: ]i:: B gn-ncting That seems -to me a very important the failure of the men of a previous gen- do not recall any great logical work writ- women, and if there is any 1 i them poty ™ the day that originally the EVoiia 2 bt o she _ Point. eration and up to the present time to ten by a woman. It was not & woman Whatever it develops and strengthens 4 4 $ 3 14 You ASYIEHEL e SIpy ian AN Professor Giddings—There are two or adequately consider the value of the who wrote Aristotle’s “Polities” or Plato’s their best chara s in tim ghts an duties, and that the was better able to take care of her home? 4 0q facts which give us an answer to the value of the mother and the works or Bacon's “Essays.” Take the Mrs. Hensle £ SETS S o 19e Iy lez chancy. Professor Glddings—For that reason.¥he that. They facts. We Iren—in, short, the value of things that nearly all educated women do people Who fly to divorce in a moment's ” sumpl reponcy. was able to care for her home fairly well, ynow, for example. t th @2 rot con- a little of: they do not do them as well passion, but the remains that there . : notwithstanding all the work she did, . Prof. t admit thet vor of the womian to balance it. For e e to-day if she must go out of her . pee en k e rights and nce, & woman cannot vote. In that home to earn money, either in a factory v E . es. How cap we say respect she is not equal to & man in the or store or in professional life, she accom- we i w t the On the other hand; a pli relativ the same amount of the » woman can dispose of her prop- Work and discharges relatively the same o ently. In that ‘respect a Dumber of obligations, but these are not ¥ ® s not her equal before the " p,Gze Truax—A woman who wishes to ar g0 out and work in business or a profes- de- 1ed at S slon—if she can make money enough—may < s e s B ¢ :’:”‘?mw l:"_‘ Al L it r woman to take care of her ¢ IR with men. S < i house. 1 should think, though, that her 3 bser st injure the home life, espe- it Professor Giddings—You mean a move- f she has children. She cannot . r snt toward increasing 1 multip! re en if she Is oft b t her opportunities? Yes, I should say that s ipt She may W, 0. 5 SRFES Fhtn il in to do her housework, but ® undoubtedly Has been a movement t hire a woma to be a mother You must remember that —The woman of twenty or r ustries are concerned the » worked all the time « £ t of the work that women very ignorantly 'nr:r“ t . s work that they did b il el e i mes. T t work h care of her home and from the home, and i the careful rtionment of her hou nen should have the requir very much t to do the 5 of working in these oceups : did days, , neralls fit. s how many . \re there to-day who understand e copdiitien of ly—That is an economic ch of eystematizing their time, who . " It is true, scientific knowledge of the prepa- ange which has take ration of food, for instance? How many . r fr t affects women in such women to-day are engaged in solvin gl Labouh & S occupations with ho it not - In the relations of hus- 5 Gane S, C g ample? If the wife Mrs, Hensley— re a good ¥ readearner outside of &k many But they will » found among 3 x: of in the home, as former- the very pc very rich, Of course - and and w :‘ ir,l if they we y would not be do- : 25 ing it, a were poor they could % e : L If the .t But you will find them among the % ' frairs ¢ or beh p the people in moderate eir- SN wraperereres v i n f , she cannot pos- . H ke et x are of »me ofessor Giddings—Undoubtedly. u £ = i in money making occupations MRS ALYON . pisss nt would apply to 1y give or have given any atten- f ynal woman. t to scientific housekeeping « i Hensley—The progressive woman— ¢ s anbideisihehi e o the bright, all around, intelligent woman N ¢t sk aaboden rs it essential to know house- ) ; e Mchs s i rly. ; and to know the right way to care r ation the fact that her chilAven, stder that it had a value. They made the as men do. Nine women play the plano to is another sida of the pletura T sm now E duties 1o perform in essor Giddings—There are certain woman a subject. They liked the daugh- one man who does so, but the greatest pi- the question of men and women th had formerly? t we can apply—not positive ones, ters to live in the home and perform the anists are men. You will find nine women elligence, who are not terical, gative Are women to-day work of the home without remuneration. who can paint a little er draw a little to but of good common sense. Suppose such A ssor Giddings--Suppose she has not er than they were a generation ago? doas Xed changes tn France, The result of it was that the woman has one man who can do So, but the greatest a ma woman. find sftey Ghove o - e ety as many ies to perform . Hensley—They are happler, I think,. moend aad the Crited” States, It we Ceased to vilue the home. She has gone painters have been men. Women may four vears that they are absolutely unc st Rarpdihint SHRL S s out at 7 or § o'clock undoubtedly. They are more intelligent. corapare tre present with twenty or thirty OUt of the home to get that which she try to be whatever they choose, but their suited to each other. Or we will take the te of things that was dis SR es home at § or § _ Professor Giddings—Let us grant that som e R o ere we find a dimin. could not get at home. That was apPre- greatest success will continue to be found case whers one of the two finds that the P A s has bee gy A : 11738 Dot the onjy. CIEMENt Of 1ries Itk rei We kaow. furth %t clation, remuneration and compensation jn being women—wives and mothers. ollar i shalutaly EMiastitur o M or s er ed out and used ishing birth rate. W w, fur T s s al : m o 3 sense of Sustice ¢h the s after cight or - the proportion of males and females in for her llie g - e - N o SO PO ow the questi whether it s es : fiensley—Her value to her home ¢ tbel 0%, &0 T ratio, It dit- have left the home to earn money else- Thers are certain SERE o . g B . urs of work—how much ¢ she 4nd to her husband is increzsing. v 2 o. and it differs i¢ Where. I frequently hear men patheti- N ocs the hetw live together, that she should bear chil- st O Do not men usually home? The work of the woman Professor Giddings—I have never been LofS from time to "\"_’m STt it uir-: (A <h that the “old” woman would the oy iy Tk i T GG CMIGrenc 48 contus r exacting in many respee: it is to.day, increased in this life without the increase O B T eyt - fve . the old Home'that they had, to-the wife . It 48 fecbmty. Js o b v sy g By o ) 1 - " of cost. We have to pay for them, and Munity with another ¥ that existed years and years ago, and to Je = B 2 £ e best class of men although it was more multifarious. The o S°*' JUS PRC N0 JUY 0L B MAC know atso t on the whole, a large | e that made.theis home kg 134 women. Anotn rotess T am not_abie 1o ¢ s a class of men bet- rd of living was not as high. Men Value of woman is being created at an Droportion of males In the birth rate is g IR M TS NOS (hat, and Of, Yomen fnto var sec. tn ¢h storical facts, I think there is hardly dren were not as much walted on enormous increase fp cost to herself. found where the women lead har It has béen the restit of thelr failure ta 10t thesd outed it makes o race. »-day_even by their wives, Mrs. Hensley—In health, do you mean? It is found among the p put a value upon it. If they had put a Wi & WA ¢ makes .= 2 matter of fact the wives have Profe Giddings—I refer to health, found where the women ar o pr valus upon it the woman and the Mrs. Hensley—Yes about ring the race i il healthy out of door labor and in hous e e . B the tinds it i e s and more particularly'to nervous health, ¥ ; : daughters would have remained in the : PSS o They were less | istance to ordipary disease w keeping of the old-fashioned sort. Where OaUEhtcrs Would have remained Mr. nk that it is true, if that s the case, the waited upon in my boyhood than they are iy yndoubtedly sharing the progre the women lead an d_Tuxurious B A N dings . There is too much cEned Ot th have come to grief long fay the race due to better sanitary conditions life, Where they are engaged very largely ... %0 that. 't the elub 1 ancient times whenever v nation ¢ rs appropria themselves and we a mothers that. wer cases of Individ- to cov Mrs. H. icas mentally wil ca by such @ eases. . - In former t1 e marriage was a necessft for worr Tecessity Now that there