The New York Herald Newspaper, September 16, 1873, Page 6

e THE SPANISH PIRATES! Interesting Operations of the Navy of Cartagena. THE “TORCH” VS. THE NUMANCIA. “Better Have Honor Without Ships Than Ships Without Honor.” PR Et Ee The Finest Man-of-War Spain : Ever Owned. A Contrast Between British Pluck and Spanish Imbecility. Very Pertinent Questions by the Herald Correspondent. SPIRITUALISM IN THE CORTES. Spaniards in a Self-Satiri- eal Way. The Effect of the Abolition of Capital Punishment, THE FALL OF ESTELLA. During the celebrated insurrection of Cadiz, ‘when the troops and sailors were driven to mad- moss by the tyrannical military code of O'Donnell and Narvaez’s time, the rebels rose in arms to the cry of “SPAIN, WITH HONOR!” Those who remember the navai battle of Callao will probably remember also the noble words of the Spanish Commander, Mendez Nunez, who said, “Better have honor without ships than ships with- Out honor |" “Spain, with honor,” is shouted by all parties Until the phrase has become wearisome through Very monotony, aud until Spaniards have nearly lost knowledge of their intrinsic worth and the pure patriotism which first shouted them. To the insur- Fectionists of Cadiz they had a deep meaning, They saw the flag of Spain had become besmutched and bedraggled in foul gutters, mixed ap with scandalous abominations, inhuman tyranny and everything evil, and out of their heart of hearts they uttered the patriotic cry:— “Viva Espaila con honra!” Can Spaniards bear to be told calmly what Spain “without honor” means? If they are willing to be instructed in the full definition of the phrase they may sce a way to the wemedy. Let us glance at the waters of Escombreras, near Cartagena, Above the mastheads of the ships at anchor there wave the flags and pennants of Great Britain, the United States, France, Italy and Germany; but there are two large, noble ships, girded with thick iron and ribeed with steel, massive leviathans of the ocean, created for war purposes. There is tio life on their decks; neither banner nor pennant waves from the mastheads; there is a general look of grim and vicious sourness about them. ‘These Ships are the tron-clads Victoria and Almansa. They are prisoners under charge of the Britisn feet. They were Spanish ships, two of the proudest and the best in the Spanish navy, which was once the most powerful in the world. The Victoria is the finest ship that Spain ever Owned; she cost nearly double whatany other ship did. She is an iron-clad frigate of the frst class, of 5,000 tons register. The Almansa is a ship which has won renown in battle. She was one of the victors near Callao, and she sailed a conqueror to Valparaiso, The pennant of Mendez Nunez, the great Admiral, waved once from her main peak. She has thus an honorable history; but she and her sister, the Vic- toria, lie under the guns of Great Britain until the central government at Madrid feels itself strong enough to take charge of them and keep them. A few miles outside of the harbor of Cartagena are THE REBEL SHIPS Numancia, Mendez Nunez and the war steamer Fernando el Catolico. They sallied out of the port at night to meet the Spanish Admiral Lobo, who Was reported to be coming from Gibraitar with the Carmen, Cadiz, Ulloa, Colon and the Navas de To- losa to blockade Cartagena, The first named rebel ship, the tron-clad Nu- mancia, was the flag-ship of Mendez Nunez at the battle of Callao; the second, the Mendez Nunez Was the frigate Resolucion, which took sucha con? spicuous part in the affair of that memorable day, and was named subsequently alter the gallant Ad- miral of the victorious feet, What occurred outside between the rebel and loyal ships?’ Did the three ships of the Murcian Canton fight the five ships under Lobo? Or did Admiral Lobo, when he saw the rebels, shout “Spain with honor! and dashing alongside, did be board them’ Nothingofthe kind, “Spain with honor” is no longer a rallying cry to Spaniards! Lobo, a8 soon as he was warned at Malaga of what he might expect, sailed to the Balearic Isles and took shelter in their friendly ports, FIVE SHIPS OF THE SPANISH NAVY FLED before three rebel ships! Is this “Spain with honor?” or “Spain without bonor?” Permit me to give Spaniards, who might read this letter, a picture of another scene. which is in Striking contrast to the one just described. When the Victoria and Almansa were captured by the British Swiftsure and the German Frederick Charles, and brought to anchor at Escombreras, under the guns of the fortresses of rebellious Cartagena, there lay a small English gunboats, called the Torch, carrying only four guns, within the port, Preparations were made to recapture the Victoria aud Almansa by the excited rebels, The Mendez Nunez, Numancia, Tetuon and Fer- Rando El Catolico had their steam up and were all prepared to launch out, MYANING BUSINESS, The Torch slipped out of the port and went for orders to Captain Ward, of the Swiftsure. Soon rch, steamed further In, and hia boat on rowed ashore, where he met an xefied crowd collected to do violence to him. But neither the fron-clad Numancia nor the fierce faced crowd ashore daunted him. He passed through them, waving his cap, and delivered his sentor’s letter to the Junta, went again to his boat and steamed away to the Swiftsure to report. Is not this conduct of the Mttle Torch in wide contrast to the pusillanimity of Admiral Lo! whose motto pa with honor?’ What woul Farragut have done he been in Lobo’s place? What would David D. Porter dot What would soy American Admiral do? What would any Britis Admiral do? The answer is found on the Swittsure’s masthead—*Board!” And had Lobo the grit and courage of Mendez Nunez, andif Spain had honor, Lobo would have boarded at once. But does “spain live with honor” at the North or at Madrid? In the Cortes there has lately been a faction formed called Spiritualists, which yesterday, under Sefior Navarette, tedigusly treated the Assembly of the national Representatives to a learned disserta- tion and SPIRITUALISM, during a general discussion about public instruc- tion. He said that the moral pertarbation and in- tellectual disorder visible in all classes o1 Spain might be charged to the fact that Spaniards were hot Sptritualists, aud he asked the Cortes that the roject of reform for secondary instruction might nciude Spiritualism among other things, after treating them to along discourse about mediums and spiritual peris, spiritual manjlestations and communication, superior and interior worlds, dou- bie and single mission of spiritual fheorists. Let the Mistresses Clafin and Woodhull come over to Spain; they have @ Jar greater chance of becoming personages of note ab Madrid thap in New York. And this kind of topics can interest the National Representatives while the newspapers publish the. fail of Estella and the surrender of its garrison of 400 men to Don Carlos, while the Pretender is chanting his “Te Deums’ within the church of Estella! Is tms “Spain with honer?” Martinez Campos is a league outside the walls of Cartagena, still asking for admission within the city, instead os breaching the walls with his mortars and artil- lery and rushing in to punish the rebels,as he ought, ifthe ery of the Cadiz insurrectionists was dear to a Spanish heart. One of the questions agitating the country, the pas the newspapers and the government at Madrid is, “SHALL CAPITAL PUNISHMENT BE ABOLISHED ?!? I think that America might also find much food for reflection and reap much advantage by studying bow its partial abolition has affected Spain. El Imparcial states the case with a clearness and persptcuity whieh command my admiration, I give it to you Literally :— “The abolition of capital punishment may be easily decided by any battalion in the Spanish army. Between Certaln death and a probable death, any person with ordinary sense would choose the second; and between a probable death and the assurance of not dying but living within a prison eight or ten years, every intelligent man Would choose the latter alternative, it 1s natural fot a man to prefer the lighter to the greater pun- ishment—imprisonment to the death penalty. This liste bit of philosophy is applicable to military dle cipline.' fo another place Zl Imparcial reveals the thoughts of one of the minority in the Cortes, THE INTRANSIGENTE REPUBLICAN 1s supposed to say— “1am not one of those who wonld impose upon aculprit the extreme penalty of the law. As a Deputy of the Cortes | have the right to impose it or not, as Tlike, When the Assembly asks for my vote, I may transfer my powers to it for the exer- cise of the extreme punishment. But if the Assem- bly uses these powers 1 shall condemn it.’ Or ip another way— “1 may prevent by my vote what I consider judi- clal assassivation. I give my vote to the Assembly to assassinate judicially, But if the Assembly as- Sassinates judicially, 1 shall condemn it as a crime.” It 1s @ remarkable fact that the republican minority have urged most strenuously the aboli- tion of capital punishment, have declared that it is a relic of barbarity, &c. ; but it is also singular that whenever any of these republican, or rather in- travsigente, deputies head an insurrection ora small party against the ae every house wall of village, city or town is immediately covered with bandos, or proclamations, such as “Death to the assassin, robber, incendiary and disorderly | Liberty! equality! and traternity!" The government may not exercise its powers against murderers or military mutineers, or to promote discipline. in its army, without being charged by the minority with JUDICIAL MURDER, assassination: though as soon as any of themselves are in power, they shoot mutineers, murderers, and not only these, but the wretched thieves an incendiaries, ‘The. mob at Barcelona lately in broad daylight heard a cry of “Thief, stop thief!” ‘They caught wn unfortanate pickpocket, and beat his braing out, A young woman went to a market in tlre same city one morning while I was there, She purchased a small bunch of parsley and put it into her basket. Thinking it dear, she tried a shop where vegetables were sold and purchased some more parsley there, and aiter she had paid for it ‘was about to put it into her basket, when the owner of the shop saw that she had pars- ley in it already, whereupon he charged her with theft. The poor woman swore that she had purchased it iu the market, but he did not be- lieve her, A crowd gathered round the shop; they jJaid hold of her, dragged her to the Rambla, tore her clothes trom her back, beat her with their sticks and fists, and she was, with difficulty, saved from death by a detachment of police. These are tho Deputies, this the mob of brutes who how! for the abolition of capital punishment and charge the government with judicial murder! What name would Americans give such people as these? tis a certain fact, undeniable and unimpeacha- ble, that the cause of ail this MORAL AND POLITICAL DISORDER and perturbation, violence and crime, mutinies and insurrections and social chaos, is the abolition ot capital punishment. For such @ people and country at least, ti for no other, the abolition of the death penalty is the most insensate act that Na ational Assembly has ever been guilty of. When old Espartero was in command of the army against the carlists during the Seven Years’ War o regiment murdered the colonel and refused to obey orders. He surrounded its camp with the troops, captured them and disarmed them, He then selected every fifth man, making the sum total of those chosen 200, He placed them with their backs to the wali, commanded them to take @ last look of earth and heaven, and then shot them dead, It was the last mutiny he ever had to deal with, What occurs now? What has occurred in the Spanish army since the abolition of the death penalty by the Cortes? Did not the army ol Ve- larde, iu Catalonia, refuse to obey him? Did they not attack his staff and drive Velarde and his officers away Irom Catalonia? Did not a regiment commanded by Colonel Guitteriez rise agatnst him and kill him? Was not General Cavrinetty’s death the resuit of his abandonment by his troops? Are not the regiments or Meudigorria aud Iberia found within the walls of Cartagena now? Did not the artillerists of Valencia rebel? What of those of Carracas at Cadiz’ Did not Generals Contreras and Pierrad, Colonels Perras and Ferrer matiny against the government? WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, Let the Cortes order the summary execution of the ringleaders and every twentieth man found among the rebels, The revolutionary spirit and indisciphne in the army would die out and give Spain ten years of peace at least. What excites the friends of tae Spanish Republic more than any other jast now is THE FALL OF ESTELLA. Two months, or rather six weeks ago, { was in Estella with the army of General Nouvilas, Murray, in his guide book, says:—‘Eatea.—Pop. 5,800; Inn, El Parudor, decent. This ancient city, the capital of its Merindad, is built on the Ega, which is here ined the Amezcua, They are both good trout streams. Visit the two ancient churches and the ruimed Alcazar. The Alameda is beautifully laid out being shaded by wainut trees. The Pasea de jo Liauos is also an agreeable promenade. Here Don Carlos was prociatmed Kingia November, 1833, by Santos Ladron de Guevara, Here, on the i7th February, 1839, Maroto arrested six of his brother Carlist leaders, and executed them with- out even the farce of 4 trial, One of these officers, General Carmona, was lured into the trap by @ iriendly invitation from Maroto to breakiast, aiter which the guest was requested to adjourn with this Judas Iscariot’s adjutant ‘on a matter of busi- ness.” He was then conducted to a spot called El Ping and shot instanter, The road continues through the Valle de Araquil, where the Cariist Zumalacarregui defeated the Christino forces under Valdes.”’ ESTELLA is & town eituated almost equidistant between Pampeluna and Vi Horia, but @ few miles nearer Pampeiuoa. Itis the centre for a large portion of Navarre, There are many fine estates in the neigh- alter her came @ boat trom the Numancta, bearing | @ threat from Contreras that the first foreign ship that enters the harpor would ve fired upon. Cap. tain Ward ordered the little Torch up and gave the | commander a letter carrying @ counter threat “that if the rebels fired on any foreign vessel he | would bombard the town,” which was to be taken to the Junta. The little Torch PREPARED FOR ACTION; her four guns were cast loose and she steamed boldly up the harbor, straight for the Numancia, which had her steam up. The Torch never devi- ated, but steered direct for her bows, as tf she in- tended to run her down, On coming alongside tuc Captain ran up the tall iron-clad’s side, and, step- ping on board, was greeted with threats and cries of “Out him down!” “Death to the foreigner!” but the Captain turned coolly round and told his Lieutenant to signal to the Swiftsure for orders what was to be done slould the Numancia tire Opon tue Lorch. GETTING INTERESTING. The anewer was seen at the masthead of the Bwiitsure instantly, It was “Board!” What! the crew of the Torch, 120 wen ali told, to board the Nomancla, with her crew of 600! Tile sailors were prepared with carbines, cutiasses and pikes, The commander of the Torch, alter telling the captain of the Numancia what Captain Ward's intentions were, asked him what le meant by having his Btear up, to Which the pale-faced rebel, stammer- ing, replied that it was ior the purpose of moving nearer the city. The British commander took of bis cap, W aved aM adicu and, going back to th | borhood, and the white roads radiate from. the town like the spokes of a wheel. North the road goes by Abarzuza and Salinos d'Oro towards Es- | bella, cast towards Sanguesa and Tofalla, south towards Lozrous, the home of Espartero, west towards Vittoria, past Los Arcos and Murtetta. As the road west leaves the beautiful valley of the Kga, wherein Estella is situated, it divides tato lesser roads, the more southern going to Arroniz and Los Arcos; the more northern goes by Muri- | etta and bugs the base of the Amezcuous moun- ains, The towering trianguiar ridge terminated ecipitous blur Decastillo stands hail- tween the two roads Between Arroniz and Descastillo ts the scene of the battle between General Santa Pan and Don Carlos, in which the former was said to have gained | an advantage at first; but we did not know then Mhat Estella nad tatien Into the latter's hands, I give you both sides of the story, as told by the, hewspapers, republican and Carlisi. 1M Correspondencia, Ministerial paper (governe Ment), says:—'*Vittoria, August 27.—The forces of General Santa Pan were joand yesterday in the neighborhood of Estella, between Arroniz and De- castillo, where the Carlist chief Dorregaray occu- pied @ good position, Don Carios was with the latter. The combat, Which began with arti and fnfantry, lasted many hours, nntil our troc fired their last cartridge. The Cariists maintained their ground and remained there. Genera’ Pan retreated, to ration and to procure mo: am munition. The forces Were nearly equal on both sides; altogether they did not exceed 7,000, The losses of the enemy are calculated at 70 deaths and 150 wounded. Our losses were many likewise. " With the arrival of Lissaraga at Estella the Car- list forces are much increased, and it will not be strange if the Carlists attack again the brigades of Santa Pan and Villapadierna. Tre capture of 4 Estella has made the Carlists more ultimate cg A and Bay think of Ribera, r upon Rioja de the pry, ema Castile, where, we fear, we bave Do troops re- sist-them, It will not be long before we shall see yn Car! moving upon or making for V) as some capi atrong gar- rison, with six guns, and new fortifications will be erected. At the last hour it is known that General Santa Pan is at Sesma, and the Pretender at Decastilio. Santa Pan 18 manitioning his troops tor reattack. The General-in-Chief, Sanchez Bregna, is advancing with 10,000 men from Buboa upon Estella, The detachment at Salvatierra has been ordered here (Viitoria). The fortifications of this piace are rapidly approaching completion. The Carlists are forti ng some points i Guipuzcoa. A correspondent from Pampeluna writes to the same Ministerial organ, as foilows:— “PAMPBLUNA, August 26, 1873, “Yesterday, at six P. M., the unfortunate but brave deienders of Estella entered this capital. The oficers carried their swords, but the soldiers were without their arms. The Carlists raapacted the lives of all, and Dorregaray commanded them Lo be escorted to within a mile and a balf from here. ‘The garrison of Estella had five dead, twenty-six wounded and many contusions. The Carlists have also suffered many wounds, The fort was mined and dred by the Cartists, which made a wide breach in it, When Colonel Sanz, commanding the garri- son, met Dorregaray, he said to him:—‘*General, I have not surrendered, but you have taken me.” Dorregaray praised his bravery, and said:—*Would to God Spain had many more officers like yourselt,”” and that such brave men deserved am escort.” ‘The military and civil governors, accompanied by @ municipal deputation, left the city, and waited at the gates for the arrival of Colonel Sanz. The military commander said to him, a3 he arrived at the gate, ‘‘Sefior Colonel, I give you welcome for your brilliant defence of Estella. You have done your duty, and more than your duty, and I am giad to see you safe and well” Colozel Sanz, who is a Dey soldier, but impassive, answered, ‘thanks. jay Lenter ?’ “Yes, Sefor,’’ said the Governor, and he at once mounted his horse and entered the city. The frigid behavior of the gallant colonel was marked by the peenle. who got more enthu- slastic than ever. No one is permitted to leave here but old men, women and children, All others are required jor the defence of the city. i ie) Carlist paper La Verdad, published in Mad- rid, gives the following details from a correspond- ent at Pamplana:— “PAMPELUNA, August 27, 1873. “DEap SiR—The details which Iam able to give you to-day relating to the surrender of Estella are the foliowing:—The namber of those whodefended Estella was 650, of whom 7 are dead and 20 wounded. Over 400 shells, 500 quintals of powder, 1,000 small arms, $00,000 cartridges,, 3,000 cloaks, many arrobas o! beans, a large quantity; of four and rice, &c., have been captured. The following day, the 25th, there was a grand action, between Decastilla and Arroniz, between the column of Santa Pau and part of our forces under the com- mand of our King. The losses of the enemy are 10 dead and over 60 wounded; prisoners, 17, Our losses are 8 dead and 15 wounded, The action was decided by Radica, who charged upon the enemy with the bayonet. ‘The enemy retreated ins¥antly, it is not known where, This ls certain; but Ll bave no more details.” Other details relating to this great-little battle are selected from the Diario Espanol, a Moderado paper. Lieutenant Colonel Sanz, who defended the convent of Estella, where the garrison had es- tablished a fort, desired to fire the powder, but the soldiers opposed him, Dorregaray addressed many kind phrases to him and allowed the officers to keep their swords. The Carlists have captured 600 guns, 70,000 cartridges and 600 grenades, Nearly ten thousand shots were tired against the walls of the fort, incinding rockets and shells, The garri- son after capitulating was accompanied toward Pampluna, until within a couple of miles of the capital by four companies of in- fantry and ao squadron of cavalry. The siege lasted eight days and nine nights, The Carlist forces numbered 7,000 men, commanded by Don Carlos, Elio, Dorregaray and Ollo. The de- fenders of the fort consisted of four companies of Malaga, one of the Princess’ regiment and volun- teers; total 400 men. It is well known that the Uberal organs augment and diminish the Carlist forces as they please, but the besiegers of Estella Were not abuve 7,000 men. ‘Tne aspect of affairs looks bad for Spain, worse pan iG ever did; but the Cortes jogs on with its usual INSENSATE BLAB from small lawyers from rustic villages, and Nava- Tette talks about spiritualism, and Sehor — dis- courses about lexicography, and Seilor — dwells learnedly upon mathematics. | they lose their opportunity. LEIPSIC. SE RE Ea The Mob and the Destruction of Property. THE KINGS INTERFERENCE. “Let the Military and the People Be One.” SOCIAL DEMOCRATS---THEIR DOINGS, LerPsic, Saxony, August 29, 1873, Mobbing seems to have become a nightly occupa- tion in thig renowned city of letters, For four nights in succession the people and the police have been contending, and from thirty to forty arrests have been made at each onset of the mob. On the 26th the Burgomaster issued @ proclamation, with a threat that THE “MOR PARAGRATT” of the law of 1851 would be strictly enforced by military interference. ORIGIN OF THE ROW. ‘True to tho belief of the Eastern Pacha, there is a woman, or, rather, a plurality of women, at the bottom of this diMculty, In one of the low can- teens, frequented chiefly by the soldiery, a private of 4 Saxon rife regiment had been stabbed a few nights before in consequence of a quarrel about one of the female waiters, Although the police denied the fact, rumor had spread that the wounded man had died at the hospital. The comrades of the soldier assembled in large numbers and threatened to take revenge. The police interfered, but were un- able torestore order, @ large number of civilians having, in the meantime, taken possession of THE DRINKING SALOONS which are situated in the nelghborhood of the house where the stabbing occurred. Commencing at eight o’clock in the eveuing, fighting and riot ing went on throughout the night, the result being that the canteen was turned into a complete wreck, BRVENGE AND DESTRUCTION. The next night the attack was renewed, and five other houses, drinking saloons of a low order, were taken in succession, The work of destruction pro- gressed rapidly and the crowd had hastened in large masses to the scene o! action, while the po- lice were utterly powerless. Plunderers were speedily on hand and actively at work side by side with the soldiers who wreaked revenge. The military were then called to aid the potice authorities, and the united etfort succeeded finally in staying further mischief, Still the population continued in an excited mood, Large gatherings appeared on the Koenigsplatz and obstructed the authorities in making arrests. The pavement was torn up, the stones were buried on the troops, and any = attempt, though a feebic one, was made 0 rec! A BARRICADE. In view of the threatening aspects, the military repared to fire. A telegram had been sent to Dresden to know the King’s pieasure, and the reply was :— “LET THE MILITARY AND TIE PROPLE BE ONE.’ A cautious and well considered answer, if indeed His Majesty ever gave it. The sentiment, how- ever, which seemed to uuderlie the royal words had @ salutary eifect. Moreover, the people were without arms, and with the example before them of the results of late riots at Frankrort matters did not take @ more serious turn, The people were literally driven hore AT THE POINT OP THE BAYONET, the large thoroughfares were cleared, but the people did not evacuate without giving warning that “they would soon return.” No more than three persons are permitted to converse together in the public streets. All places of amusement, Aurants and drinking saloons are closed, But the seeds of disorder have now taken root and & renewal of disturbances cannot possibly be delayed. SOCIAL DEMOCRATS re Making capital o1 the aifair. They are stirring up the people at Dresden and Chemnitz, and the ‘wildest rumors are afloat in respect to what we are to see in a few weeks. Tue number of persons arraigned betore the courts reaches nearly 300. All are held and treated as criminals, There is no doubt that the social democrats are playing their part very adroitly. For the present A proclamation has been seized by the police full of sharp eriti- cis of Prussian rule, The German Emperor, a8 well a8 Bismarck, are treated therein very uncere- monionsly, There 18 much sly and guarded talk about @ proposed gathering lay when the un- Velling of the Column of Victory iakes place at Berlin, and it is feared that the laborers from sur rounding districts, where the social democrats have made great progress, Will join the rioters on the ovcasion, ) YORK ‘HERALD, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 1873—QUADRUPLE met] 6 ZSARISM. Ex-President Johnson’s Views on the Question of the Day. The Dangers That Threaten the Republic. A SEVERE REVIEW OF THE SITUATION. Lessons from the Past and Prognostica- tions of the Future. GRANT'S AMBITION EXPLAINED. GREENVILLE, Tenn., Sept. 12, 1873, A few days ago your correspondent called upon ex-President Johnson, at his office, and fortunately found him not too much engaged to grant the in- terview desired. Mr. Johnson’s oMice is an unpre- tending brick building, one story high and avout 18x24 feet in dimensions. It ts plaiuly furnished, containing a small walnut table, on which the ex- President does the most of his writing, a large painted desk, three unpainted splint-bottom chairs, a small “Index” stove and a large square spittoon, filed with sawdust, His library num. bers between 1,200 and 1,500 volumes, and 13 ar- ranged on platn pine sbelves, reaching from floor to ceiling. On the walls are steel engravings of President Lincolu and hunself, with a picture of a cross inarustic frame, which complete its adorn- ment, the floor not being carpeted, Here ue sits and muses on the events of an exciting life, and composes those wonderiul speeches which always: draw crowds aud rarely fail to electri/y his hear- ers, On entering Mr. Johnson was seateu, writing, at alittle table an- which lay an open volume con- taining Pittman’s account of the trial and execu- tion of the conspirators engaged in the plot which terminated in the assassination of President Lin- coln, The book was marked in several places with slips of paper, and he had evidently been refresh- ing his memory by a re-perusal of 1ts contents. Alter a kindly greeting and exchanging the cus- tomary salutations, knowing his bluntness, your correspondent plunged in medias res by asking the leading question, upon the affirmative answer of which depended altogether the success of the inter- view. THE GREAT COMMONER'S VIEWS. RerorteR—You are aware, sir, of the discussion that has been carried on for several weeks past in the newspapers on Omsarism. I have been spe- cially commissioned to ascertain if you would be willing to give me your views on the subject ior publication in the New York HERALD? After a courteous allusion to the proprietor of the HERALD, with whom he was personally ac- quainted, and expressing his admiration of the present conduct of the paper, Mr. Johnson re- plied :— “Yes, sir; Ihave seen several of the articles to which you refer, and whil® I fail to see that any- thing is to be gained by tie agitation of the matter, yet my views are of long standing, and having been heretofore expressed, though not with direct refer- ence to the name it now bears—Cesarism—by which is understood a third term, I have no objec- tion to their publication. RePoRTER—In that case, Mr. Johnson, may I ask if you wonld favor a third term for the Presidency? Mr. Jounson—No, sir, I do not; and if there is not an improvement in those who occupy the Presidential chair, : ONE TERM IS TOO LONG. REProRTER—Perhaps I did not make myself suf- ficiently clear. What {I wished to ascertain was— What, in your opinion, would be the effect upon the country of General Grant’s election for another and third term? Mr. Jounnson—That is a question involving more the exercise of prophecy or surmise than any probable result to come to pass of which one has actual knowledge; and, however accurately one might foretell the future, yet if the danger was seen to be too imminent by the peopie, or if, to use & metaphor of Napoicon L, “the pear was not yet ripe,” those contemplating a further lease of power could and would forego their intention for the time, and the just reasoning of the patriot and statesman be considered as the utterances of a false prophet. The tendency of affairs is certainly toward a third term, if not to a monarchy, the consummation of the latter being the cherished idea of a respectable number of THE ULTRA RADICALS AND REBELS of the country, who in the present tendency seo a nearer approach to the success of their wish than while the Southern Confederacy was in existence, RePorteR—Do you not think that President Grant has sufficient patriotism to decline a third candidacy, if he believed the true interests of the country would suifer thereby ? A BAD OPINION OF THB PRESIDENT. Mr. JouNSON—What, Grant? Not he. Why the Uttle fellow is but a puppet in the hands of his ad- visers, who by appeais to his vanity and cupidity influence him to carry out their aims. Te ts already an aspirant for the position for four years more, but withal has suificieat shrewdness to abaudon the idea by seeming to repel the approach to a cen- tralization ‘of power, which his canvass would involve, if by so doing he could gain popularity and blind the eyes of the people to his true aims. His instincts are entirely selish aud he is governed by policy, not patriotism, REPORTER—What are the indications of danger threatening the republic as comprehended in the term Cwesarism ? Mr. JoHNSON—AS history informs us, the down- fall of liberty in Rome commenced by gradual en- croachments on the rights of the people by a privi- leged few, privileged by sufferance; for had their first assumptions been checked the evil would have been nipped in the bud, the Rubicon would never have been passed by a Cwsar, and the mis- tress of the known world would have been spared the long years of bloody civil wars she endured, THB DANGER THREATENING OUR INSTITUTIONS was seen as early as 1820 by President Jackson, who, in order to preserve the purity of the chief office of the government, recommended the one- term Macleod 4 » A great deal has been sald in ref- erence to the first term of office being consumed in manipulating for a second term, and that the patronage of the government is used for partisan and corrupt purposes. This is one argument for confining the Presidency to one term, and is good so far as it goes, But this does not remove all the objections or abuses that row out of the election of a President. I not only Boneve that it would be far better to elect the President for one term, but would yo further, and elect him directly by the people, and also members of the Senate, in the same manner that Represen- tatives in utils are elected. This would dis- pense with the intervening machinery of the Elec- toral College, as well as Congressional caucuses and nattonal conventions, which is a temptation to intriguing politicians and designing office-seek- ers to make arrangements for the loaves and fishes to be divided among themselves and their special friends. In my judgment the time has arrived when these conventions, botn State and na- tional, should be dispensed with, and I so stated during the canvass in this State last summer. The election by the people is simple and enttrely practicable. The States can be Iaid off in electoral districts, equal in number to the Senators and Representatives in Congress, which is the basis of the Electorai College, Tne electors in each electoral district could vote directly for President and Vice President, and the candidate receiving @ majority of ail the votes cast in all the electoral districts of the United States should be declared elected. This would be bring- ing the government closer to and more directly under the control of the People. In a message to Congress of date of July, 1! lexpressed my views on this subject and gave in support of them the following sentence from the messags Of President Jackson, as above mentioned, Of 1629, thirty-nine years ago. f A QUOTATION FROM JACKSON. “1 would, therefore, recommend such an amend- ment of the constitution a8 may remove all inter- mediate agency in the election of President and Vice President. The mode may be so regulated as to preserve to each State its present relative weight in the election, and failure in the frst attempt nay be provided for.by confining the second to a choice between the two highest candi. dates, In connection with such an amendment it would seem advisable to limit the service of the Chief Magistrate to a single term ofeither four or six years, If, however, it should not be adopted, it Is worthy of consideration whether & en fe disqualifying for office the Representatives in gress upon whom such election may have volved, would not be proper.” In the same message I went yet further:—‘Strongly impressed with the truth of these views Tieel called upon by an imperative sense of duty to revive substantially the recommendation so often and so earnestly made by President Jackson, and to urge that the amendment to the constitu- tian herewith oresented or same plyUay DTOGAl ti may be submitted to the people for their On OF. ” bud Congress was againgt me ana the recommendation went [or I understand you then, sir, s representative ernment, in the literal me or ler ie pay de, the tei what you consid mh theory of republican ae = Mr. JoHNSON—That ls my meaning. The framers of the constitution made the ment limited, as weré the different States, in consists THE DIFFERENOR BETWEEN OUR OWN AND THE ANCIENT REPUB: In the latter the individual was absorbed in the State, which prescribed his religion and controlled his activity, The American system rests on the assertion of the equal rienis of every man to Iife, Bberty and the pursuit of hap; ineassto freedom of conscience ; to the culture and exercise of his facul- Ues, Aa a consequence, the State government is limited—as to the general government in the in. terests of union; as to the individual citizen, in the interest of (reedom. Without States one great , branch of the legislative government would be wanting, and if we look beyond the letter of the constitntion to the character of our country, its capacity for comprehending within its jurisdiction evans continental empire is due to the system of es, Reporter —In the event that there is really settled plan fora third term, what steps do you think will be taken to bring about the consum- Imation of the object ? Mr. Joanson—The thing might be done in many Ways, but tt would be the work of the monopolists, who, one and all, naturally favor centralization. Among the many rings of monopolies may be men- tioned the land grabbers, who, by Congressional enactinent, have been awarded millions of acres of the public domain, which should have been the heri- tage oftuture generations, Then comes the railroad monopoly, whose iron bands penetrate throughout the country, from ocean to ocean and from the lakes to the Gulf, growing in wealth and power from year to year, and forging chains to bind the people as heavy as their own rails. Tiat these powerful corporati are constantly increasing 1n Wealth and power, while being consolidated in the hands of a decreasing few, 13 well known, ana their rottenness and corruption is clearly evidenced by the Crédit Mobilier and Fremontscandais. Next are THE BONDHOLDING BING, THE WHISKEY RING, THE IRON RING AND THE MILITARY’ RING, of which latter Grant is the head. Thus, in the bands of the leaders of these rings, representing the great interests of the nation, is more than tm- penal power, and to retain the power they now ave and acquire what is certain to follow, they would do anything that kept the people from inter- Jering With their plans and the carrying out their selfish ends, Capital and power go hand tn hand, and capital belng timid depends lor safety and pro- fection upon power. With a figurehead for a President and @ subsidized Congress, how easy it would be to enact a law declaring that the peace and perpetulty of the government were in danger, and pass a law continuing the President in his seat for an tudefinite term, or during the pleasure o1 Congress, REPORTER—But, Mr. Johnson, the late civil war has nade us a nation of soldiers, and if such a usur- pation of power was attempted would not the peo- pee in their might and tear down their false ols Mr. JonNsoN—Steps would be taken beforehand by a skilful stationing of troops to overawe any attempt of the kind; yet, granted that the effort was made, what could an unarmed mob accom- plish against a disciplined soldiery well armed and ‘with abundant war material and a full treasury to sustain them? Sherman would carry out such orders with avidity and the prestige of success would sull further discourage the people to resist the oppression, most of whom realize what the ter- rors of civil war are from sad experience: The country is already raled by a “stratocracy,” or military government, and the transition to a more arbitrary assumption of power will in all proba- bility be so gradual as to cause no alarm until the shackles are riveted upon our limbs. ANOTHER GREAT AID TOWARD CENTRALIZATION is an inflated paper currency for the people and interest-bearing gold bonds for the monopolists. He regarded this as one of the most dangerous elements of power and showed by statistics that while the quantity of gold and silver taken from our mines was in excess of the currency in circu- lation, yet, except the small amount held in the ‘Treasury, the remainder mysteriously disappeared— the people had none of it—ano yet 1% Was some- where ; perhaps where it would “do the most good” when wanted. With the rings in power and a cen- tralized government it would be an casy matter for Co |, by & special act, to deprive the people of even the currency, by rendering it valueless, and, with the gold of the Western mines in its vaults, buy a lease of power which would satisfy the wild- est dreams of an avowed imperialist. Rerorreks—What class of politicicans do you suppose most earnestly desire the bringing about of this centralization or Cxsarism—the old rebel Gemocratic clemen eae boasts that it is not yet ead, or the ultra republicans ? Mr, JoHNsoN—Neither and both. The sycophants who now cluster around Grant wouid be glad to see him elected a third time, Knowing that is their sole dependence for continuing in office. They are of both classes, and it is noticeable that every rominent ex-rebel who has tawned upon Grant a8 been rewarded with a position of some kind. In this connection Mr. Johnson mentioned Henry 8. Foote, of Tennessee, who had been lounging around Washington waiting for a crumb of patron- age and whose zeal in the service of his master had lately been ‘rewarded by an appointment to South America, which, occurring shortly after a bitter personalattack upon himself (Mr. Johnson), he considered as significant of the President’s hostility toward him. PU! RITY IN PARTIES, Mr. Johnson, in response to a question on this subject, said that there were tl ment of the war two grand parties—the whig and democratic—both of which had the highest venera- tion for constitutional liberty, in which was in- cluded States righta, though not the right to secede. A good democrat or whig could not take up arms against the government, and the pro- fessed devotion of the men who did to the prin- ciples of those old aud honorable party organiza- tion was the merest clap-trap and injured the party now. Jefferson Davia in again trying to “fire the Southern heart” was a great misfortune to this section, for they were taken as the senti- meuts of the Southern people, while in fact they were endorsed by an insignificant few of the St. Clair Abrams class. : He denounced General Holt in very severe terms for writing a letter Tecentiy published, containing a statement in regard to the trial. of Mrs. Surratt and the action of five members of the court in re- lation thereto, He said that the proccedings of that memorable trial were published under the supervision of a government official who testified to their correctness and fulness. The publication of General Holt claimed to be a part of the proceed. ings, which if true showed that the manuscript had been tampered with aud at the same time raised a question of veracity between him (Holt) and Colonel Burnet, the censor of the report of the jd he certified to what was not true in that event. Casarism was not a new idea and the failure of the first organ in advocacy of the measure was no indication of its abandonment. fn the Jmperialist of July 3, 1869, files of which paper he has on hand, Mr. Johnson read the following extract :—“The magnificent destiny of this nation is predeter- mined and inevitable, and it is borne to empire on the resistiess current of fate.’? FALSE EDUCATION, Mr. Johnson thought our system of education was & false one, and contrasted it with that of Prussta. There the youth were trained to labor 4a well as acquiring an educational knowledge, and taught to reverence and protect their country and king. In this country the idea of education seemed to be to live without work. A great deal was sald about skilled labor, intelligent labor and all that, but it was impracticable ina great measure, Who ever heard of 4 man possessing a good education pur- suing severe manual labor as a means of obtaining a livelihood trom choice. Did any one suppose that skilled labor built the pyramids of Egypt or the Appian oat ? Certainly not, Intelligence and skill supervised the work, but the laborers were as ignorant as the same class of men in more modern times. uur children should not be tanght that labor was degrading, and that as soon as a few removes from illiteracy had been attained by education they must look for some position witich would enable them to live without soiling their bands. In ad- dition to what was he he already, a love of coun- pe! should permeate and underlie our whole system of instruction, a knowledge of the constitution and of liberty should also be acquired, for on the ob- servance of the doctrines contained in that tnstru- ment depended the salvation of republican insti- tutions on this Continent, As will be seen, toward the last the conversation took on turn and many subjects were dis- cusse PERSONAL. Among the reconstructed Confederates Mr. John- son mentioned@General Barringer, of North Varo- lina, while the lesser lights of the secession democracy and the radical leaders in this State came in for his animadyersion. Isham G. Harris— ‘whose latest exploit of vaior since the surrender ‘was to accompany a cs railroad president to Dalton to fight @ duel with a Knoxville editor for exposing his shortcomings—he spoke of in the Same manner as he did of Grant, Holt and others, Ua g of him as “the Uttle fellow” and “King Harris,” which latter title he bestowed on him during the canvass of 1861, Mr. Johnson talked with all the animation that characterized hiin in his paliniest cre and darin; the interview walked the floor and gesticulate: somewhat as ts his wont when before an audience. In reply to an inquiry as to his health, he replied that it had greatly improved during his visit to the mountains, from which he had just returned, and that he felt no bad effects from the attack of chol- era which for a time prostrated him This remarkable man, who has passed through every phase of life from the humblest walks to bo the peer of princes and the equai of emperors, still preserves the affability of former days, when once the ice 18 broken; and men or all classes approach him as freely, and are treated as courteously the one as the other. Though a8 @ race the negroes have not Appreciated Ms efforts as & Moses’? in thelr behalf, he yet 18 always willing to grant them a favor, two instances of the kind occurring under $ho observation of your correspondent. On leaving be accompanied me to the door, aud alter a cordial shake of the hand bade me good. by, adding an invitation to come and ace him | whenever | was in Greenville, and Ltook my de- parture more than ever convinced that in many respects he is the most remarkable man tn the United States, and satisfied that be hates the salary grabbers, from Ben Butler up, @8 cordially a8 Ly does tue consolidationisin THE CUIBP JUNTICESHIP. Views of the Bar of Tennessee on the Appointment. JUDGE SWAYNE FIRST FAVORITE. Reasons Why a Politician Should Not Get the Office, ee CONKLING TCO MUCH OF A PARTISAN. Memruis, Sept. 12, 1873, In compliance with instructions I have inier- viewed the prominent lawyers of Memphis regard- ing their views as to who would be the best man for Chief Justice of the United States, and send you herewith their several answers, as briefly and succinctly expressed as practicable. All shades of opinion are represented among the members of this Bar, and the answers are characteristic. * Several of our most eminent lawyers have not returned from their summer tours, but I lave made the most of those’ whom I found at home. My first interviews were with Mr. B, M. Estes, an eminent member of the Memphis Bar, and with Mr. H. 3, Ellett, late a Judge of the Supreme Court of Mississippi, who came in during our conver- sation, Mr. Estes said it had been the custom to appoint as Chief Justice one who was not already on tho bench of the Supreme Court; that if this custom were to be changed, which he desired to see, his preference would be decidedly in favor of Justice Miller or Swayne. Both he considered eminently - qualified tor the place. Judge Swayne had ali that suavity of manner which makes the task of argu- ment before the Bench agreeable and picasant to the members of the Bar; while Judge Miller, with Jess polish, had the Doric strength which gras; and masters the most difiicult questions. If the oid custom is to be followed he would prefer to seo William M. Evarts or Caleb Cushing made Chief Justice, and Of the two Evarts would be his first choice. JUDGE BLLETT said he did not favor Cushing. He had admired his accomplishinents and his penance, especially one made at Marbiehead, and the boid ground taken by him, that the federal government could not make war upon a State; but when he aiterward swung around to the opposite doctrine, and sougut @ Military command to enabie him to enforce it, he lost confidence in his integrity. He could excuse himor holding to either extreme, but not for the duplicity which abandoned one for the other. Evarts was universally recognized as a great lawyer and a good man. So far as his individua) ehoice was concerned he would prefer to see Jud, Jeremiah S, Black Chief Justice, as he esteem: him a8 without asuperior asa lawyer and publi- cist. He had been assailed, but no stain had been aMxed to his integrity. He would dislike to see & man so deeply imbued with the politics of the day as Attorney General Williams put in the Blane. Ita Southern man were to be: appointed he re- garded Chief Justice Pierson, of North Carolina, as eminently qualified for the station, the only objec- tion to him being the want of reputation through- out the whole country, in which opinion Mr. Estes concurred, MR, ARCHIBALD WRIGHT, who was for many years a Judge of the Supreme Court of Tennessee, said he had not taought much upon the subject. He had a high opinion of Judge Swayne. He does not know Evarts as well, but recognizes him as a great lawyer; thinks Judge Black would make an excellent Chief Justice. Cushing is 6 brilliant man, but he does ‘pot want him. He takes ‘it for granted, republican will be selected, a decided Thinks it @ misfortune for the whole country that there ig no man from South of Mason and Dixon’s line on the Supreme Court bench; and yet, on looking over the South, State by State, finds it hard to pitch upon a man iit for Chief Justice. He Cangot now think of any great jurist in Virginia or ith Carolina, Judge Pierson is a fine pasty ‘wants some qualities proper for the station, Ex-Supreme Judge Campbell has the requisite qualifications for the place, but his ex- treme ultraism during and since the war unfit him for such an appomtment. William F. Cooper, of Nashville, he thinks to be fully qualified for the office; and E. H. Ewing, of Nashville also, if his aye be not an objection. He adds that we want for this high office not only a profound lawyer, but & man of such integrity and firmness that his opinions will not be clouded by prejudice nor Ws purity liable to suspicion. CHARLES KORTRECIT, a Union man from before and since the war, sald be had noticed the names of Swayne, Conkling, Evarts, Miller and Cushing mentioned in connec- tion with the Chief Justicesbip. He has seen a food deal of Judge Swayne while he was holding rt here, as weil as on the bench at Washington, but does not inchne to him. He would be perfectly satisfied with either Conkling, Miller or Evarts. He thinks Judge Miller an admirable lawyer and @ profounder thinker than Evarts, of whom he has @ very high opinion. (O8KA TOWNSEND, from Ohio, and who served in the federal army, is 8 highly respectable representative of our younger Class of lawyers and new citizens, ag well as of those entertaining similar political opinions. He says he is of the opinion’ that the Chief ‘Justice should be taken from the Supreme Bench; thas the selection should be made simply on the basis of capacity and legal abilities, and that it should not be a political ap- pointment. Judge Swayne is the only Judge on the Supreme Bench whom he knows personally, and he thinks him well fitted for the station; bu there may be others o1 guite equal qualifications, aud he does not pretend to judge between them, GRORGE GANTT, popular as an advocate and of high standing among his professional brethren, served in the Confederate army and well represents the intelli- gent class of his people. He says he thinks no bet- ter selection could be made than Willlam M. Evarts, Either Chief Justice Redfleld, of Vermont, or Judge Cooley, of Michigan, would be his second choice, These preferences are solely on the ground of legal qualifications for the office—the onl, con- siderations that should have any considerable Weight in such @ selection. Colonel Gantt thinks that the President shouid be able to make @ selection, as he certainly made some admirable ones during the war, of the consequences of which Colonel Gantt retalns a vivid recollection. Ho thinks the Chief Justice should be a man of pre- eminent qualifications, not promoted from the Bench, as this would make a stronger Bench than 8 promotion leaving & vacancy to be filled by an untried man Coniessedly not ft for Chief Justice, DUNCAN BR. MRA, who was in several public employments undcr Mr. Buchanan’s administration and served the Confed- eracy, says Justice Swayne is eminently fitted for Chief Justice. He would like to see him receive the appointment, and to have Judge Emmons, of this circuit, promoted to ae idaroe and Juage Henry G. Sinita, of Memphis, made circuit Judge, both of the latter being abundantly fit for these stations, He thinks the Chief Justice should be promoted from the Bench. He says Juage Davis would be a good Chief Justice, but that, he supposes, 18 Out of the question. Of Chief Justice Pierson he Says he has uo superior as a jurist, Conkling ia too much of a politician, and Evarts is a lawyer of great ability. Mr. McRae desires these views to be taken as merely his own personal opinions, EX-GOVERNOR ISHAM G. HARRIS, whose public career is well Known, and Whose pete sonal influence is a3 great as that of any of the oid leaders of the Southern party, said he had given no pointed attention to the subject of a successor to Chief Justice Uhase, because he had not supposed it to be within the range of possibility that his opinion ceald have weight with the powers that control in these affairs. Yet he was ever ready to give his personal opinions to any who may ask for them. If he could have his own choice it would unquestionably be William M. Evarts, ospecially among all who have been named in connection with the appointment, It is an office whose duties embrace a Wide range. The incumbent should nos only have the indispensable qualifications of emi- nent ability and legal learning, but wiat is of higher significance, should be able to rise above all otuer considerations than the law of the case and the rights of the parties; and | prefer Mr. Evarts because I think he fills this large measure more perfectly than any other person among those named for the station, MK. T. W. BROWN. My last interview was with 1. W. Brown, who is not only an influential lawyer, but takes an ac- tive part in all questions touching public improve- men An ex-Vonfederate, Mr. Brown 1s under. stood to favor liberalism in politics, He said:— “The present juncture in our national develop ment makes the selection of a Chief Justice of the aan Court & most critical performance of official duty, if it ts discharged patrioucally, He should not ve selected wita reference to his pres- ent party connections. It would be better ifsome eminent jurist and conservative publicist, who would be regarded by her people as one of them. should be Sppointed from the South, But the mo- deration of the hour or of the people now fn power is not such as to afford @ rea- sonable hope of this. Therefore we must make up our minds to take the appointment from the North. In selecting from the North no lawyer controlled by New England views of government or law ought to be charged with the responsibili- ties of this position. Geographically, THE MIDDLE STATES OR THE WEST ARE TO DE PRE- FERRED is In assigning this oftice { would prefer Hon. Jere. Black or Hon, Davia Davis, But I fear their pott- tic’ may be too much out of harmony with “the powers that be’ to render this preference practi cable. If | am compelled to take choice of ex- treme republicans, which t# likely, the safest of those in the line of promotion is Justice Swayne, now of the Supreme Bench, though he has been, as I conceive, quite heretical Ws sgpe Of bis delivers A pages,