The New York Herald Newspaper, April 18, 1868, Page 3

IMPR ACHAT, Triad ‘of President Andrew Johnson for y " High Crimes and Misdemeanors. Meeretary Wellss, Frederick W. Seward and Western Editors on the Stand. mportant Testimony of Secretary Welles in Relation to the Removal of Mr. Stanton. Another Version of the President’s St. Louis Speech. The Court to Meet at an Barlier Hour in Future. SPECIAL TELEGRAM TO THE HERALD. WASHINGTON, April 17, 1868. ‘The opening of the examination of Cabinet officers, ‘@uring the latter portion of to-day’s session of the Impeachment Court, elictted great interest on the Part of the large crowd assembled in the galleries. ‘Though the Managers allowed certain preliminaries im the testimony of Secretary Welles, a lively contro- ‘Versy sprung up on the question of admitting the @eclarations of the President and other conversa- ‘tional matter in relation to the case of Mr. Stanton. ‘The Managers manifested their usual hostility to anything calculated to throw light upon the real mo- ‘tives of the President. The counsel for the President ‘insisted upon the admissibility of the evidence in ‘view of what they proposed to prove. The question ‘will come up again to-morrow. ‘The Butler “ harangue,” as well characterized by ‘Mr. Evarts yesterday, has had a very damaging ef- Yect upon the prosecution, Senators and radicals generally condemning {t in no measured terms, The latter are divided on the question of its propriety, and those who denounce it do so in the most em- phatic terms. A prominent radical to-day, it is under- stood, asked the Chief Justice why he did not call the Manager to order when using words so evidently in- applicable and vulgar. The Chief Justice had nothing tosay. The Senate, having taken the jurisdiction of the court in their own hands, are alone responsible Sor the decency of its proceedings. A rather good story has leaked out, in which the principal actora were Senator Grimes, of lowa, and Mr. Grinnell, ex-member of Congress from the same State. It appears that by some unaccountable Means the radical guardians of the country who have their being in the State of Iowa became pos- Sessed of the idea that Senator Grimes had mani- Sested a disposition, during the impeachment trial, te consider only the evidence brought forth for and against the articles of impeachment, entirely losing sight of the wishes of the republican party; or, to xpress it as they did in Lowa, “going back on them.”? Under this impression they took counsel together for the purpose of adopting some method of acquainting Senator Grimes with just what they ex- pected of him when the final vote comes to be taken, A budget of documents was prepared with a view to the correction of Mr. Grimes’ supposed divergence from the radical path to the untraminelled control of the country, and the papers were entrusted to the care of Ms. Grinnell—who, it will be remembered, is the gentleman that suffered at the hands of General Ronusseau—to bring to Washington and lay before Senator Grimes. Mr..Grinneli reached here safely yesterday, but was unfortunate enough to lose his carpet bag on the way containing the papers which -were to be used in terrifying the honorable Senator into submission. This being the ease, Mr. Grinnell had no recourse left but to present himself without his documentary credentials, and state orally what was the purport of the lost papers. He used every argnment that suggested itself, and urged the suspected Senator to fail not in casting his vote for conviction; to which Mr. Grin- nell, # is said, received the following satisfactory Peply:—“You may go to (naming a place sup- posed to be in an opposite direction from heaven) with your papers. I will cast my vote in this case in aecordance with the law and the evidence.” The Beply made by Mr. Grinnell, or whether he made any, to this candid avowal of an honest man, has not transpired; but it is said no further argument was used. General Geary, Governor of Pennsylvania, isin this eity. It is understood he comes here to give the en- couragemert of-his presence to the success of im- peachment. Fernando Wood returned to Washington to-day fom New York, having been summoned asa witness on behalf of the President. It is said that the object is to examine him as to a conversation with the Pre- sident on the 22d of February relative to the removal of Secretary Stanton. ‘The Cabiuet convened this morning at ten o'clock, all the members being present, and finished up the business vefore it by noon. The object of meeting at an earlier bour than usual was that the members of the Cabinet might have an opportunity of conferring ‘with the President's counsel, who arrived at the White House and weredn consultation with the Pre- skient for some time previous to the meeting of the Cabinet. “4 ‘The members of the President’s counsel present ‘were Messrs. Evarts, Curtis, Nelson and Groesbeck. Mr. Stanbery was not sufficiently recovered from his Miness to attend the interview, which lasted for more than two hours. The matters under discussion, it is said, have a very important bearing upon the defence im the pending impeachment trial. PROCEEDINGS OF THE COURT. Seventeenth Day. UNITED STATES SENATE CHAMBER, WASHINGTON, April 17, 1868, ‘The court was opened in due form and there was a @ rather larger attendance of the House than usual ‘this morning. On motion the reading of the journal was dispensed with, CHANGE OF HOUR OF ASSEMBLING AND ADJOURNING. ‘The Carer Justice stated that the first business in order was the order oifered by Senator Conness yester- @ay, that on each day hereafter the Senate, sitting as a Court of Impeachment, shall sit at eleven o'clock A.M., to which Mr. Sumner had offered the following amendment:—‘Thai considering the public interest ‘would suffer from the delay of this trial, and in pur- suance of the order already to proceed with all con- venient despatch, the Senate will sit from ten o'clock im the forenoon until six o'clock in the afternoon, ‘with such brief recess as may be ordered.” The amendment was lost by the following vote:— YRas—Senators Chandler, Cameron, Cole, Corbett, Har- Jan, Morrill of Me, Pomeroy, Ramsey, ‘atewert Thayér, Tip- Nave Senators Asthosy, Cattell, Conn Dixon, ens, Davi Drak: ressenden, Fowler, Fretingba: Gfimen Hengricks, Howard, Howe, Johnson, orann, aor’ in of Vt, Morton of ‘Tenn Patterson of X, He, Jury, Sherman, Trumbull, Yan Winkle, Vick Winey withers and Witssa- 30. 7 a ‘The order offered by Mr. Conness was adopted by the following vote:— Cameron, Catvell, Praasion, S Conk. Drak Hit 4 re ‘reayer, Tipion, Willey, Williagia, Wilaon ‘and Fates Baye—senators Anthony, nae goo Fowler, hte Hendricks, Jounson, Pi ‘of Tenn, ‘Frambull, Van Winkie and Vickers—12. BXCLUSION OF MANAGER BUTLER’S TABULAR STATE- MENTS. Senator Ferny offered the following order:— in the of the Senate a er eter gt ipa a geal attasentia arta urn ments were neit! npoken in discussion mar offered or re¢ aired 10 ovigenee | er he tabular statements be omitted Lent x" tule trial as publisbed Mas peeceetage at Mr. Burien—I only desire to say that I stated the effect of the tabular statements to the Senate, and I aia not read them at length because it would take too much time. ‘Benator HENDRICRO—I rie to @ question of order NEW YORK HERALD, SATURDAY, APRIL 18, 1868—TRIPLE SHEET, and propriety. I wish to know whether it be right for any Senator to defend the Secretary of the Trea- sury against the attacks here made, or whether our mouths are closed while these attacks are made; and ifnot proper and right for a Senator, whether it is ‘the right of the Managers to make the attack upon him, The Carer Justice—An amendment can be made to the resolution proposed by the Senator from Con- necticut (Mr. Ferry). the Senate can retire for consultation. If no Senator makes that motion the Chair thinks it proper that the honorable Manager should be heard in ex- planation. Mr, BoTLER—I wish to say that I did not read them because I thought them voluminous, I had them in my hand, and I made them a part of my ar- gument. I read the conclusions and inferences to be drawn from them, and thought it was due to myself and the Senate that they should be put exactly as they were, and I therefore incorporated them in the Globe. To the remarks of the honorable Senator (Mr. Hendricks), I simply say that I made no attack upon the Secretary of the Treasury. I said nothing of him, Idid not know that he was here at all to be dis- cussed; but I dealt with the acts as the acts of the Executive simply. Whenever called upon I can show the reason why I dealt with those acts. ‘The CHIEF JUSTICE stated the question. Senator ANTHONY—I understood the Senator from Indiana (Mr. Hendricks) to ask if under the rules he could be permitted to make a defence of the Secre- tary of the Treasury? “ The Cuter JusTicE—The rules positively prohibit te. le! a ee ANTHONY—By unanimous consent it might made, Some Senator objected. The order was then adopted ‘with but few dissenting voices, TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. ARMSTRONG. ‘Wm. W. Armstrong was sworn and examined by Mr. Curtis. Where do you reside? A. At Cleveland, Ohio. nator DRAKE Called the attention of the Chief Justice to the impossibility on his side of the cham- ber of hearing the witness. Mr. EVARTS suggested that there was not so much silence in the chamber as there might be and that they must take witnesses with such natural powers as they possessed. The Carer Justice remarked that conversation was joing on at the back of the Senators and that it must e stopped. The examination of the witness was resumed. Q. What is your occupation or business? A. Iam one of the editors and proprietors of the Cleveland Plaindealer, Q. Were you at Cleveland at the time of the visit made to that city by President Johnson in the sum- mer of 18667 A. I was. Q. Were has present at the formal reception of the President by any committee or body of men? A. 1 was. Q. State by whom he was received and where? A. The President and his party arrived about half-past eight o'clock in the evening and were escorted to the Kennard House. After taking his supper the Presi- dent was escorted to the balcony of the Ken- nard House, and there he was formally welcomed to the city of Cleveland, in behalf of the municipal au- te and citizens, by the President of the City Council. Q. Did the President respond to that address of welcome? A. He did, Q. What was the situation of that balcony in refer- ence to the street—in reference to its exposure? State, also, whether there was not a large crowd of persons present? A. There wasa very large crowd of persons present. There was a erowd of persons on, the baicony. i How did it proceed? A. After the President had begun to respond for a few moments there were no interruptions, and I judged from what the Presi- dent said that he intended— Mr. BUTLER—Excuse me—stop a moment. I ob- ject to what the witness supposes was the Presi- dent's intentions, Mr. Curtis (to the witness)—From what you heard and saw was the President in the act of making a continuous address to the assembly or was he tnter- rupted by the crowd? Describe how the affair pro- ceeded. A, The President commenced his speech by saying he did not intend to makeaspeech. I think, to the best of my recollection, he had come there simply to make the acquaintance of the people and bid them goodby. I think that was the sub- stance of the first paragraph of his speech. He apologized for the non-appearance of General Grant and then proceeded with his speech, Q. How did he proceed? Was it a part of his ad- ress, or was It in response to the calls made upon pu by pe people? Describe. A. I did not hear all e 8 . Q. Did you hear calls made upon him from the crowd and interruptions? <A. I did—quite a number of them. Q. From what you saw and heard the President say, and from all that occurred, was the President closing his remarks at the time these interruptions began? A. That I cannot say. MA Can you say whether the interruption and calls upon the President were responded to by his remarks? A. Some of them were. Q. Were the interruptions kept up during the con- tinuance of the address, or was he allowed to pro- ceed without interruption? A. They were kept u; very ged te the conclusion of the President’s 8] Q. What was the character of the crowd—orderl; or «disorderly? A. The large majority of the crow: i er sate as tothe rest there was a good deal of jporder. Q. Was that disorder confined to one or two per- sons or did it affect enough to give character te the interruptions? A. I have no means of ascertaining how many were e! red in the interruptions. Cross-examination by Mr. BUTLER:— Q. Was Mr. F. W. Pelton, President of the City Council, present? A. I believe so. Q. Was not his address om the baleony to the Presi- dent simply in the hearing of those on the balcony, and did not the President, after he received that wel- come, then step forward to address the multitude? A. I believe that after Mr. Pelton’s address several of the distinguished gentlemen who accompanied the party were presented, and then, in response to the calls of the people, the President presented himself, Q. Would you say that this was a correct or an in- correct report:—“At about ten o'clock, the supper being over, the party retired to the balcony, where the President was formally welcomed by Mr. F. W. Pelton, President of the city Council, as follows,” &c. Would that be about the substance? would be about the substance. Mr, BUTLER continued to read:—“Then the Presi- dent and several members of the party appeared at the front of the balcony and were introduced to the people, Then the vast multitude which filled the streets became most boisterous and sometimes bitter and sarcastic.” Witness—I did not hear any interruptions to the President's speech until after he had proceeded five or ten minutes. Mr. BuTLER—But whenever they did come would that be a fair representation of them? Witness—To some extent. Mr. BUTLER (continuing to read)—‘They listened with attention a part of the time, and at other times completely drowned the President’s voice with vo- ciferations.” Is that so? Witness—That is 80. Mr. BuTLER oe a to read)—“After the pre- sentation was made calls were made for the President to appear, and he spoke as follows”—I will read the first part of that speech:— Fellow Citizens—It 1s not for the purpose of making ® speech that I now appear before you. "Tam aware of ap ho a num! ny w be bas to aap. (A Votce—Three cheers for Grant.) * Q. Was not that the first interrupuon? A. I be- jeve 80. Q. Was there any interruption after that until he a of Stephen A. Douglas, and was not that sim- ply the interruption of ay ? A. There were three cheers given, I believe, for Stephen A. Douglas; then he went on without interruption until this phrase came in:—‘‘I come before you as an American citizen simply, and not as the Chief trate, clothed in the insignia and hernalia of State, being an inhabitant of a State in this Union, I know it has been said that I was an alien.” Then came in laughter. Q = ize Perens say oper § Lee ee unth he cain ie paragraph:—“There was, two years @ ticket before you for the Presidency. I was placed upon that ticket with @ disti Citizen, now no more.” (Voices) “Is a pity!” “Too bad!) “Un- fortunate!” A. I did not hear those words. Q. Do you know whether they were or were not said? A. I do not know. Mr. BUTLER—I will not trouble you any further. EXAMINATION OF BARTON ABLE. Barton Able sworn, and examined by Mr. Cur- Tis: ). Where do you reside? A. In St. Louis. . What is your occupation? A. I am cneaged in mercantile business and am Collector of Internal i for ag Ue Ag fed “ Missouri. oy . Were you in he summer atthe time President Johmson visited that city? 4 es, sit. Q. Were you on any committee connected with the reception of the President? A. I was on the Com- mittee of Reception—the Merchant’s Union Com- mittee. Q. Where did the tion take place? A. Citi- zens of St. Louis met the President ly at Alton, iL, some twenty-four miles uis, The it. Lor hy I recollect, received him at the Lindell Hotet, in St 18. ‘You speak of being on @ committee of some at was that association? business a ™ tile association, aa com posed of the merchante—the men of the city. Not @ political association? A. No, sir. wd Did the President make a ress to the people of St. Lou! What | Sees’ Sensation, If the Senator thinks it proper | | was towards the President? A. I heard might as well (» tt, am there was a large crowd out- side in front eo? Q. Dig tee President say anything before he went out, a8 “o whether he wanted to make a long speech or as'sort speech, or anything to characterize the speech which he proposed to make? A, My under- Standing was that he did not care to make any speech atall, Mr. CurTis—You have already explained that he manifested reluctance. Now, if he said anything as to bee purpose in going out I should like to have you state it. Witneas—I understood from his aceeptance that his intention was to make a short speech when he went out. Q. Did you or not hear what he said, or were you in @ position so that you could hear what he said? A. T heard his conversation with the committee, ‘ 1 mean after he went out? A. I heard very little o1 1s Q. Was it a large crowd or a small one? A, A large crowd. . Q. Were you present far enough on the balcony to be able to state what the demeanor of the crowd from the inside, I was not on the balcony of the hotel at all; Buex Reent from the parlors one or two interrup- ions. Q. You remained in the parlors all the time? A. Between the parlor and the dining room; 1 was not on the Daicony. Croas-examined by Mr. BUTLER:— Q. You met the President at Alton, and you your- self, a8 one of the committee, made him an address on board the steamer where you received him? A. I introduced him to the Committee of Reception from St. Louis. ao That was made on board the steamer? A. Yes, re Q. Then Captain Eades, who was the chairman of the ad made him an address of welcome? A. Yes, sir, m a Fee after that the President made a response? » Yes, sir. Q. And in that address he was listened to with particular attention, as beeame his place as Presi- dent? A. I observed nothing to the contrary. Q. Then you went to the Lindell Hotel? A. Idid not go to the Lindell Hotel. Q. Well, thfe President went? A. I think the car- riage of the President went to the Lindell Hotel, Q. And en route to the Lindell Hotel he was es- corted by a@ procession, was he not? A. From the landing—yes. Q. By a procession of benevolent societies? A. I do not recollect what societies they were; it was a very large turnout, and perhaps most of the socie- tes of the city were represented. Q. Were you at the Lindell Hotel at all? A. Yes; I was not there when he arrived at the Lindell Hotel. Q. Were you there when he was received by the Mayor? A. No, sir, Q. You do not know whether the Mayor made him an address of welcome? A, Only from what I saw in the press, & Now do you know what the President respond- ed? A. | wai not present. Q. What time of the day was it when he got to the Lindell Hotel? A, Ido not know what time he got to the hotel, for I was not present at his arrival. Q. Cannot you tell nearly the time? A. It was Probably between one and five o'clock. Q. After that did you go with the President from the Lindell Hotel to the Southern Hotel? A. Ido not recollect whether I accompanied them from one hotel to the other or not. . He did go from one to the other? A. Yes. . There was to be a banquet for him and his suite at the Southern Hotel that night? A. Yes. Q. At which there was intended to be speaking to him and by him? A, There were to be toasts and responses, Q. What time was that banquet to come off? A. I do not recollect the exact hour; I think somewhere about nine o'clock. Q. At the time the President was called upon by the crowd were you waiting for the banquet? A. When the President was called upon by the crowd I do not think the banquet was ready. He was in the parior with the committee and citizens, Q. The citizens being introduced to him? A. Yes. Q. Did you hear any portion of his speech on thi balcony? A. Only such portions of it as 1 could catch occasionally from the inside; I did not go on the bal- cony at all. Q. Could you see on the balcony from where you were? A. I could see on to the balcony, but Ido not know whether I could see preeisely where he stood or not. Q. While he was making that speech, and when he got to the sentence, “I will neither be ‘bullied by my evemies or overawed by my friends,” was there any- body on the balcony trying to get him back? A. I can hardly answer Uiat question, as 1 was not there to see, Q. You might have seen persons trying to get him om? A. I did not. Q Can you tell whether it was so ornot? A. I should think that if I could not see it 1 could not Ll Egle ae only want to make sure on that mn Witness—I am positive on that point. anger) Q Who were on the balcony ides him? A. sup) e balcony would hold perhaps two hun- dred people; there were a great many people there, Q. Give me the name of some one of the two bun- dred if you can name anybody who was there. A. think Mr. Howe was there; my recollection is that the President walked out with Mr. Howe. Q. Was General Frank Blair there at any time? A. I do not recollect of it if he was, Q. Did the President afterwards make a speech at the banquet? A. A short one, Q. Was the crowd a noisy and boisterous one? A. T heard a good deal of noise from the crowd while I Was moving about inside. EXAMINATION OF GEORGE KNAPP. George Knapp sworn, and examined by Mr. Curtis. . Where do you reside? A. In St. Louis, . What is your business? A. lam one of the pub- lishers and proprietors of the St. Louis Republican. Q. Were you in St. Louis at the me of President roped visit to that city in the snmmer of 1KK27 A. Iwas. “ak Were you in the room where the President wast was. Q. Please state what occurred between the Presi- dent and citizens or a committee of citizens in refer- ence to his going out to make a speech. A. crowd on the outside had called repeatedly for the President. 1 recollect that Captain Abie, Captain Taylor and myseif were together. The crowd con- tinued to call, and some one suggested, I tnink it was I, that the President ought to go out; some fur- ther conversation occurred, [ think, between biu and Captain Able. Q. You mean the gentleman who has just left the stand? <A. Yes sir; that he ought to go out and show himself to the people and say a few wordg, at any rate; he seemed reluctant to go out; we walked out together on balcony and he addressed the assembled multitude, Q. What was the character of the crowd? Was there a large number of people? A. dou’t think I got far enough on the balcony to look upon the mag- nitude of the crowd; I think I stayed back some dis- tance. Q. About what number of people were in the bal- cony itself? A. I suppose there were probably from fifteen to twenty; there may have been twenty-five. Q. Could you hear from the crowd? A. I could. Q. What was the character of the piyerp 30 far as the crowd was concerned? A. I do not recol- lect teens pe ef impressions are ony he tegen or rej questions were apparently put to the Sentient 1 do not recollect exactly what they were. Q. Was the crowd orderly or otherwise, so far as you could see. A, At times they seemed to be some- what disorderly; but of that I am not very certain, Cross-examined by Mr. BUTLER:— Q. Did you go out on the balcony at all? A. Yes, I ped out; itis a wide balcony, perhaps twelve or fi feet; it covers the whole of the sidewalk; I stepped out; I think I was probably one, two or three ieet back of the President part of the time while he was speaking; there were a number of doors and windows leading out to the balcony, and you could stand in a window or door and hear every word he said. Q. Did you listen to this speech so that you could hear every word he said? A. I listened pretty at- tentively to the speech while I stayed there; but whether I stayed there during the whole of the time 1 do not now recollect. Q. You have told us there were fifteen to twenty ee on the balcony? A. That is my impression; am not certain about that. How many persons would the balcony hold? % ippose the balcony would hold a hundred le. Q Then it was not at all crowded on the bal cony’ A. I do not recollect whether it was or not; 1 did not charge my mind, nor do I now recollect; the — were full, and f think it very likely that a large number of the people crowded on the bal- Vicor but whether the balcony was crowded or not [ do not recollect. Q. Were you it at the time so as to remem- ber distinctly when he said “I will neither be bullied nor overawed by my friends?” A, I do not recollect that phrase. Q. Did the confusion in the crowd sometimes re vent him on, or did it not? A. I think it likely that it did; but I am only oa from my present impreesion, as I do not recollect. . Did you hear him say anything about Judas? A. No, sir; 1 do not recollect it. id you hear him Bay anything about attending to John Bull after a inal A. Ihave no recollection of the points of his speech. € ir as you know and all that you know which would be of advantage to us to hear, is that ou were present when some citizens asked the lent to go out and answer the call of the crowd? A. { cannot a. oh some citizens, those While the banquet was waiting? A. Yes, sir. %, What ink at eight o'clock. banquet to take plac . What time had this got tobe? A, Ido not re- Was it near he cony to hear the ht o'clock at thattime? A. I lent went out it was near time I know i =H it Z i it} 5583 | ul exactiy att] mt Fy i S| 2 . BUTLER—It that this did not. Was ‘The part that toNew Orleans? A. Yes. because it for the President or because Was there any material difference between you the banuuet was not ? A. I think it was be- | and him when you had your notes there together cause it waited for the that part of the 1” Ifso, state what, A. @ Did you publish that speech next morning in | waa. your paper? A. Yes, ait, it was published. G. What was it? A. He asked me to compare notes %@. bid you again republish it on Monday morning? with him— A. Yea. ‘Mr. BUTLER—Exeuse me; I am not asking what be ya dewocralie paper, asa tbe, Democrar ta the | that} tjor ad Bs Sepor en J compari sad a rev serert ee hne Resutlican was van. | woaltee i wes think I said to the President | menced in times, for J have been connected with it over years and at the — Mr. BUTLER (inte! )—Excuse me. I don’t Want to go back forty years. (Laughter.) Was it in fact a democratic newspaper at the time the Presi- dent wasthere? A. Yes, Ce And the St. Louis Democrat (so called) was really the republican paper? A. Yes. Q. In the demoeratic paper, called the Republican, eg eueeck, Was published on Sunday and Monday? Q, Was it ever published since? A, No, sir; not to my knowledge. 5 Sane why you caused an edition oi the speech to be corrected for Monday morning’s publication? A. | met our principal reporter — Mr. BUTLER (interrupting)—Please not state what took place between your reporter and yourself. I want the facts, not the conversation. Witness—I gave directions to Mr, Zider, on read- ing the speech, to have It corrected. . Were your directions followed, so far as you know? A. I do not recollect as to the extent of the corrections. I never read the speech carefully. Q, Did you ever complain afterwards to any man that the speech, as puplished in the Monday morn- ing's Republican, was not as it ought to have been? A. I cannot draw the distinction between Monday’s and Sunday's papers. I have reneeieals spoken of the imperfect manner in which I conceived the speech was reported and published in the Republican on Sunday; whether I spoke of it in reference to Monday or not, I do not recollect. . You say that you directed a revised publication on Monday, and that it was published. Now did you ever compen to snyhody within the next three months after that revised publication was made that that publication was nota true one? A. It is possi- ble that I may have complained on Monday morning x be corrections were not made, but 1 do not recol- ct it. Q. Is it possible you did not? A. That, I say, I cannot recollect, Q. Now, will yen say that in any important par- ticular the speech as published in your peper, differed from the speech as put in evidence here? A. I can- not point out @ solitary ditference, because I have not read the speech as put in evidence here, nor have I read the speech since the morning after it was delivered. Mr. BUTLER—I will not trouble you any further. EXAMINATION OF HENRY F. ZIDER. Henry F. Zider sworn and examined. Before the examination commenced, the witness intimated to Mr. Curtis that he was somewhat deaf, Mr. CurTIS—Where did you reside in the summer of 1866, when the President visited St. Louis? A. In ‘St. Louis, Mo. Q. What was then your business? A. I was then en- pect 48 @ short hand writer for the Missouri Repud- an, & — published in St. Louis, Q. Had you anything to do with making a report of the speech which the President delivered from the balcony of the Southern Hotel? A. I made a short hand report of the speech, and was authorized to employ what assistance I needed; | employed Mr. Walbridge to assist me; Mr. Walbridge wrote out the speech for the Sunday morning Republican; I went over the speech the same afternoon and made several alterations for the Monday morning's Republican; I made the corrections from my own notes. o Did you make any corrections except those which you found were required by your own notes ? A. There were three or four corrections which I did not then make, but | marked them on the proof sheet in the counting room. Q. With these exceptions did rie make any cor- rections except what were called for by your own notes? A. Those were called for by my own notes, but they were not, in fact, made. Were the other as pag called for by your notes? A. Oh, yes, all of them, o. Have you compared the report which you made and which was published in the Republican of Mon- day with the report published in the St. Louis Demo- erat? A. 1 more particularly compared the report published in the Monday Democrat with the Sunday Republican. Q. You compared these two? about #ixty changes, Q. Ditferences? A. Yes, sir. Describe the character of these differences, BuTLER—I object to his describing the charac- ter. Let Isim state the diiferences, Mr. Curris—Do you want him to repeat the sixty differences ? , A. Yes; there are Mr. BuTLER—Certainly, if he can. Mr, CurtTis—Witness, have you a memorandum of these differences? Witness—I hav Mr. BUTLER—Lefore When it was inade. Mr. CunTis (to the witness)—When did you make this comparison? Witness—Lasi Saturday, the 11th of April. Q When did you make the memorandum? A. I made the memorandum on the Sunday following. Mr. BUTLER—Last Sunday? A. Yes, sir. Mr. CurTis—For whom did you make the memo- randum? A. I was brought here by the Managers and discharged after being here twenty-four days; I had just returned to St. Louis, when I got a tele- graphic despatch that | was summoned again to appear before the Senate; 1 thea went to the Repub- Ucan office and took the bound files of the Republt- can and the bound files of the Democrat, and, in company with Mr. Joseph Monaghan, one of the as- sistant editors, made a comparison of the papers and noted the differences, and compared the dif- ferences twice afterwards to see that they were correct; that wis on Saturday last; I started for Washington on Sunday afternoon at three o'clock; this paper contains these differences, Q en Was it made? A. Last Saturday. Q. Was it made at the same time when you made this comparison or at different time? A. It was mean the — Cores . rT. CURTIS—Now, if the honorable Manager wishes to have ali these differences, you can read oer, Mr. BUTLER—Stay @ moment. Any on which you rely we wish to have read, . CURTIS—Merely upon all of tuem, more or less. ot: Boruse-“Thea all of them, tore or less, must Mr. Curtis—We should prefer, in order to save time, to give specimens uf the ai ces, but H you desire to have all read you can have them ’readq, Mr. BurLer—There is a question back of this—enav is, we have not the standard of comparison. This witness goes to the Republican office and theretakes: & paper, but we cannot tell whether it was the true paper or not, or what edition it was, and he com- pares it with a copy of the Democrat, and, having made that comparison, he now proposes to put in the result of it. 1 do not see how that can be evi- dence. He may state anything which he has apy recollection of; bat to make the memorandum evidence and to read the memorandum is something | never heard of. Let me restate it. This witness goes to the Republican office to get the Kepublican, What Republican? How genuine? What edition it was, except that it was in a bound volume, is not identified. He takes the Democrat, of what edition we do not know, and he compares the two. He then comes here and atteinpis » put in the results of a comparison made in which reads } shoukl like to know Monaghan held one end of matter and he held the other. Now, can that be evidence? Mr. CurTIS—I want to ask the witness a question, and then I will make an observation. (To the wit- ness)—Who made the report that was in the Ze- publican which you examined and compared with the report in the Democrat ? Witness—Mr. Walbridge, on Saturday, September published in the Sunday morning m ber 9. Q ed at the proceedings in this cage y to see whether that report has been put in evidence? A. The Sunday ican mentions Mr. Walbridge’s pag in feretue te — z = one or two simple corrections for the Mon mo! Democrat. adtrusmieg Q. Now l wish to ee whether the report which you saw in the files of the Republican, and which you compared with the = in the Democrat, was the report which Mr. Walbridge made? A. Un- bs xins Wy itis ited the M: ir. CURTIS—| suggest learned Man- ager, Mr. Chief Jastice—— = Mr. BUTLER (interrupting)—I will save you all Put itin as much as you choose; I don’t care if you leave it unread, Mr CurTis—We simply wish to have it put in the case to save time and to have it ited. is ae oe cannot be anything printed that no! . Mr. CurTIs—We understood you wished to dispense with the reading. “4 anne Cuter JusTice—Let it be read if the Manager res it. Mr. BuTLER—I do not desire it. Mr. EVARTs—Is It to go in evidence, Mr. Chief Jus- tice, or is it not? The Cuigv Justice—Certainly, it is. Mr. BUTLER—It may go in for all I care, sir. bg py by Mr. BuTLer. aed wt . How long have you been troubled with your un- fonunate amMiction? “ Witness—To what do you refer? Q. Lunderstand you are a little deaf, Is that so? A. [have been sick @ great part of this year, and was compelled to come here a month ago, almost before I Gonna ‘you be ie, and I aaont Got Noha Fg h ¥ ear my qi low ave ou been deaf, if you are deaf at all? ria have m deaf for the last two han Q. About whattime did it commence? A. I do not recollect. AS saint tena ea ga te Seat ¥ en you Louis speech In z vate Q. That is @ very good date to refer to, but suppose yeu, try it by the almanac? A. That wee io dctaver, Q. How soon did you become deaf after that? A. Probably about @ month. (Laughter.) Q. You are quite sure you were not deaf at that time? A. Lam aes certain, because I know I heard some remarks which the crowd made, and which you did not hear, ae. af I have no doubt you heard much better than T but sup) we confine ourvelves vo this matter. You say that about a month after that you became deaf? A. lly; 1 recovered from that again and took sick again. Q Acgy ti you your notes of the President's speech? 'Q, When did you see them last? A. ‘The last recol. I have of them was when Mr, Walbridge ‘Was summoned to give his testimony before the Ke- earings orbeuenos el ett ote . v 8] avwe went over on}; ‘apart ‘ot it. 08 pert Mr, Evarts—I submit, Mr. Chief Justice, that as the Manager has asked a precise question, “what the difference was on that comparison,” the witness should be permitted to state what it was and bow it Mr. BuTLER—TI have not asked any difference that arose between the witness and Mr. Walbridge. Far be it from me to gointo that. I have asked what ditfer- ence there was between the reports of the speech. Mr. CurTis—As it appeared from that comparison. Mr, BUTLER—A8 I found at that time. Witness—I was going on to answer, and if the gen- tleman will have patience a few moments I will answer, The Cu1gr Justice—The witness will confine him- self entirely to what is asked and make no remarks, Witness—We proceeded to compare the speech re- lating to the New Orleans riots. . Wall read over his notes and I looked over mine, en he came to this passage, ‘‘ When you read the speeches that were made, or picked up the facts, you will find the speeches were made,” I called Mr. Walbridge's attention to those words qualifying the sentence, “Tf the facts are as stated,” he replied to me, “Oh, youare mistaken, I know I am right," and he went on, AS he was summoned to answer to his own notes, and not to mine, I did not argue the question further, but let him go on. . What other difference was there? Vitness—In the New Orleans matter ? Mr. BUTLER—Yes, Witneas—The President referred to the convention which had been called in New Orleans, and which was extinct by reason of its power having expired. The words “ by reason of its power having expired” were in my report and were not in Mr. Walbridge’s. Q. Was there any other ditferences? A. No other. Mr. Walbridge proceeded with his report of the mat- ter with reference to the New Orleans riots. The lat- ter part of the report was not compared at all, nor was _ first rere . Have you the report as it appeared in the Re- mbuioan of the Monday before your A. T have. Q. Let me read a few sentences, and tell me how Many errors there are in this that was put in evi- dence here:— FELLOW CrrizeNs oF St. Lours—In being introduced to u to-night, it 1s not for the purpose of making a spee ia true I am proud to meet so many of my fellow citlz on this occasion, and under the favorable circumstan Ido, (Cry How about Britis jects") We will attend to John Bull after awhile, so far as that ts concerned, (Laughter and cheers.) I have just stated that I was not here for the purpose of making a speech, Witness, interrupting—The President said, “Iam not here.” Mr. ButLeR—Then the difference is between the word “was” and the word “am”. Do you know that the President used the word “am” instead of “was? A, Of course I do. Mr. BUTLER (continuing to read):— But after being introdueed simply to tender my cordial anks for the welcome you have given me in your midst—(A. voice, “Ten thousand welcomes,” hurrahs and cheers) — Thank you, sir; I wish it was in my power to address you under favorable circumstances upon some of the questions that agitate and distract the public mind at this time. Witness interrupting—The word was “which agi- tate,” &c, Mr. BUTLER (continuing to read):— Questions that have grown out of the flery ordeal we have just passed through, and which I think as important as those we have just passed by. The time has come when itacems to me that all ought to be prepared for peace. The rebellion being suppressed and the of blood being sto the sacrifice of life being # i and stayed, It see me that the time has arrived when we should have peace, when the bleeding arteries should be ted up. (A voice— “New Orleans,” “Go on.”) Mr. BuTLER—So far all ts right except the two cor- rections you have made? A, Yes, sir, I wish to make a correction at the New Orleans part. Mr. BUTLER—Why should you wish anything end about it. Witness—You were proceeding to make a corre tion, and when you came to that New Orleans p: t you stopped. Mr. Bu m—I will take this portion of the speech laas—Judas Iscariot—Judas; there was a Judas once’—. Witness (interrupting)—There is one Judas too much there. (Laughter.) Mr. BuTLER—You are sure, then, he did not speak “Judas” four times? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times did he speak “Judas?” Three tims, Q. In the report that is in evidence those words are italicized, are they not, and stretched out? ‘Two of the “Judases” are spelt with the last syllable “aas.” Do you mean to say that the President spoke that part with emphasis? A, I mean to say that he did not speak them in that way. Mr. BurLer, continuing to read: There was a Judas once—one of the Twelve Apostles. On, Yes; and these twelve Aposties had a Christ. (A Voice— ‘Aud a Moses, tov.) (Great laughter.) The twelve Aposties had a Christ, and he could not have bad a Judas anless he had had twelve Apostles. Mr. BUTLER—So far it is right? Witness—Yes—not stretched out. Mr. BuTLER—Yes, sir; stretched out. Wiiness—Is there any other question you would like to ask me? (Laughter.) Mr. BuTEBR—Now, sir, will you attend to y business and say What differences there are? (Con: tinuing to read):— ‘The twelve aposties had a a Judas unless he had twell Judas, who bas been my C with? Was it Thad Ste Mt Charles Sumner? A. rist, and He could not hav posties. If Lhave played th t that I have played the Jus vena? Was it Wendell Phillips ? (Histes and cheers.) Witness—The word “that”? should be “who.” Mr. BUTEER—Is that a fair Specimen of the sixty corrections you have made? Witness—Phere age four in the next three lines, Mr. BUTLER—Answer the question. Is that a fair specimen of the sixty corrections ¢ Mr. Evarts—Mr. Chief Justice, | suppose the cor- rections, the whole of which are put in evidence, will show all this, Mr. BUTLER—I am cross-examining the witnoss, and I prefer that the witness shail not be instructed. Mr. Evarts—It is not instructing the witness. We thought it would save time by putting in the memorandum. Whether this is a fair specimen or not as compared with the whole paper will appear from @ comparison by the court. M. BuTLER—I am testing the witness’ credibility, and I do not care to have him instructed. The Comm JCSox—If the question is objected to the honorabie Manager wit lease puy tt in waite: Mr. EVARTS—It ts Not a quesuen of Creajpility; it is a matter of judgment between the two pcoers whether one correction is a fair specimen of all, Mr. BUTLER (to the witness)—I ask whether the corrections you have made in answer to my ques- tions ure of the same average character aa the other sixty corrections? Mr. EvaRtTs—We object to the question. It requires a re-examination of the whole subject. Mr. BurLer—Well, I will pass from that rather than take up the time. Mr, witness, you told us that in the next three lines there were corrections. I ‘will read the next four lines:— In the days when there wire twelve Apostles and when there ware # Christ, while there sure Judases there wei believers too; yer, while there were Judses there ware Hevers. [Volces—“Hear! Three groans for Fievcher. ‘ob yea, unbelievers in Christ. Witness—The word “were” is spelled four times “ware,” and the first time it should be “was.” Mr. BURLER—Then your corrections are all on questions of pronunciation and grammar? Witness—The President did not use the words you say. The President did not pronounce the word “were” broadly, as is sometimes the Southern fash- jon, Isay he did not use the word as used in that % Did he not speak broadly the word “wero” when he used it? A. Not so that tt could mot be dis- juished from “‘were.”” ‘Then it was a question of how you spell and pronounce that you corrected? A. The tone of voice could not be represented in print. Q. And you think that “were” better represents his tone of voice? A. Yea, sir; although it cannot be represented in print—yes. Q. Now, sir, with the exception of corrections in nunciation and in grammar is there any correc- un of the report as printed in the Den ‘on Mon- day on comparison with the report of the Republi- can? Witness—Of what day? Mr. BuTLER—The Republican of Sunday or Monday. I ba enw with the exception of corrections of grain- mar and pronunciation, is there any other correction in substance between the reports as printed that morning between the Monday Republican and the bari Democrat? A. Yes, sir, Q. What are they? A. One is, “Let the govern- ent be restored; [ have labored for #; 1 am for it now.” The words “‘I am for it now” are omitted in the Democrat, and there is @ change in the punctua- tion in the commencement of the next sentence. . What else is there? A. Speaking of the Neu- trality law he says:—*I am sworn te support the con- stitution and to execute the law.” me one hal- looed out:—“Then, why did you not do it?” He answered :—‘The law was executed.” These words, “Why did you not do it?” and “The law was exe- cuted” are omitted in the '] Yoo, Q. What else, in substance, {8 omitted? A. I do not know that | can point out any other without the memorandum. . Use the memorandum and point out any differ. onge in substance—not grammar, not punctuation not pronunciation. Witness, after examining the memorandum, stated that in one sentence the word “sacrificed” was used eS _F Democrat report, the proper word being Mr. BUTLER (to the witness)— Well ' bigyiou fart ahi ) i, I will not trou. itwess—I wi int out more, Mr. BUTLER—That is all, sir, DOCUMENTARY BVIDENCR. Mr. Contis—We offer in evidence document. It is the commission issued by P: it Adams to General Washington, constitutin resid: General of the ron Of the Unt a tenet 1s to show the form in which commissions were Beuea at that day to high military officers, itis the most conspicuous instauce tm our history as regards the practice, Mr. BUTLER—There were two appointments mi do him or the on ted? cater g General Washington. Was th Mr. Evarts—We andersta eed to ian, ea od it is the one actually . BUTLER—ANG Mr. EVaRTs—We anderstand 80. 4 pete Do objection. Mr. Btris-we ext offer a document from the Deperimeens of tae Interior sewins, removals of Bul of ae at aeeae of wong Gee Generals ml Itsho' y we that in the case of the Treasury have allowed to go in without objection, there other cases not reported where the power was fused to be exercised, and I whether it ia so in the Interior or not. But most of those examined by us are simp! under the law fixing their tenure daring the pleas of the President for the time being, and some ol them are inferior officers originally made by the Department; but if the counsel for the Presiden| think they have any bearing we have no objection, Mr. Cunris said he had not had an cnpossanlsy & examine them minutely, but he underst al number of them held office under a fixed tenure, might be a matter of srqumens hereafter. tr ir. BUTLER—What Ciass of officers do you speal o Mr. Currts—Receivers of public moneys Is one o the classes. meet JouNson—What is the first date of re » Mr. Ccrtis—I think they extend through th Whole period of existence of that department. I da, hot mean the date when the department was estab Ushed, but I think they run through the whole of it.! EXAMINATION OF FREDERICK W. SEWARD, 4 Frederick W. Seward, sworn on behalf of respon~, dent and examined by Mr. Curtis. 4 Mr. Seward, will you please to state the office you bow aden the government? A, Assistant Secretar. of State. Q. How long have you held that office? A. since March, 1861. \ . In whose charge in that department {s the sub= ject of consular and vVice-consular appointments A. Under my charge. i Q. Please to state the practice of making appoint~ ments of vice-consuls in Lhe case of death, resigna-: tion, incapacity or absence of consuls? A. Usually: consula— Mr. BUTLER—Is not that regulated by law? Mr. Curtis—That is a matter of argument. thiak it is, Mr. BurLER—So do we. ' Mr. CurTis—I want to show the practice under tha law, just as we have done in the other cases, I hav: the document here, but it requires some explan: tion to make it intelligible. (‘'o the witness)—Wher @ vacancy has not been foreseen the consul nomi~ hates a vice consul, who enters upon the discharge of his duties at once at the time at which the nomi. notion is sent to the Department of State. The de~ partment approve or disapprove of the nomination in case the vacancy has not been foreseen, and if the consul 1s dead, or sick, or unable to; discharge the duties, then the minister of the coun; try may make a nomination to tue Department of State, or, ifno minister, the naval commander not unfrequently makes a nomination and sends it to the Departinent of State, and the vice consul so designated acts until the department approve or dis- approve. In other cases the department has often designated a vice consul without any previous nomi- nation from either consul, minister or naval com~ mander, and he enters upon the discharge of his duties in the same manner, how is he authorized or commissioned? A. He receives the certificate of hia appointment signed by the Secrerary of State. Q. Running for a definite time, or how? A. Runs ning subject to the restrictions provided by law. M4 Q. Is this appointment of vice consul made tempo- rarily to filla vacaney, or how otherwise? A. IL is made to fill the ofice during the period which elapsest between the time it takes for the information ta We Are these the men that set up and compare themselves with the Saviour of men reach the departivent aud a successor to be ap- pointed. Q. That is, for a succeeding consul to be appointed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Sometimes weeks or months may elapse before a newly appointe cessor can reach the place. It is then an ad interim appointment to Ol the vacancyi A. Yes, sir. Mr. BUTL missions about their R—Is there anything said in their eom- sing ad interim or in the letter of appointment? The letter of appointment says, “subject to the conditions made by law.” Q. Is that the only limitation there is? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are not the appointments made under the fit teenth section of the act of August 11, 1856—Au, gust 18, isn’t it? A. T think you are right, sir; August 18, 1856. [ think the act of 1856 does not create the office or give the power of appointment, but it recognizes the office as being already in exist- ence and the power as already in the President, Mr, BuTLER—We Will see that in a moment, sir. Mr. Butier then read from 1L Statutes at Large, sections 14 and 15. He then continued :—Now, sir, have they ever in the State Department undertaken to make avice consul against the provisions of this act? A. Tam not aware that they ever have, Hl Q. Nor ever attempted to do it? A. No, sir, not that I am aware of. Mr. Cortis—I now offer from the Department of State this document, which contains a list of the con+ sular officers appointed during the session of the Senate when vacancies existed at the time such Sp: pointments were made. ‘The earliest Instance was ln 1837 and they come down to about 1362. If L remem- ber right — ; Mr. BouTWELL—I wish to call the attention of the eounsel for the respondent to the fact that it does not appear from these papers that these vacancies hay pened during the recess of the Senate. It merely states that they were filled during the session of the Senate. Mr. CurTis—It does not appear when the vacan- cles happened. The purpose is to show that these temporary appointinents were made to fill vacancies during the session ef the Senate, u Mr. BoutweLL—lI give notice that we propose ta consider these as cases happening during the reces# of the Senate, Mr. Evarts—And filled during the session. a5 Mr. BOUTWELL—We do not know anything about that. Mr. Evarts—The certificate ts to that effect—filled during the session of the Senate. | Mr, BouTweLL—We do not object to the paper. [ ouly gave notice how we propose to consider it. EXAMINATION OF SECRETARY WELLES, Gideon Welles sworn on behalf of respondent and examined by Mr. EVARTS :— Mr. Welles, you are now Secretary of the Navy®* A. Yea, sir. Q. At what time and from whom did you recelva that appointment? A. I was appointed in March, 1861, by President Lincoln. 1 Q. And have you held that offtee continually until now? A. From that date. Q. Do you remember, on the 2ist of February last, jour attention being drawn to some movements of Troops or military officers? A. On the evening of the 2st Of Fevenary my #tention was called to some Movements that were made sies “i Q. How was that brought to your evention? A. My #0A brought them to my attention. He had veen attending a party and an order came to the party requiring all officers under the command of General ben to repair forthwith to headquarters, a. Did you in consequence of that seek or have an interview with the President of the United States? A. Lrequested my son to go over that evening or the folowing day. Mr. BUTLER—Stop a moment. Mr. EvarTs—You attempted to send a message at that time? A. I did, On Saturday, the 22d, | went myself about noon to see the President on this sub- Ject; I told him what 1 had heard and asked hima what it meant. Mr. BurLer—We object to that conversation, and before we go to the objection I would like to ask the witness to fix the time a little more carefully. ' Witness—About twelve o'clock on the 22d of Feb- ruary. . How close to twelve o’clock—before or after? A. [should think it was a littie before twelve o'clock; I will state a little clreurnstance or two; the Attors ney General was there when 1 went in, and while £ was there the nomination of Mr. Ewing was made as. Secretary of War, and was «i the private secretary to be carried to the Senate, ‘Mr. BUTLER—Stop @ moment, Mr. Evants—It is not time for cross-examination now. . Mr. BUTLER—It is in order to ascertain whether io is admissible, Mr. Evants—It is quite immaterial. Mr. BUTLER (to witness)—You think it was very near twelve o'clock? Could it have been as early as half-past eleven? A. No, sir, I don’t think it was. Between that time aud half-past twelve some time? A. Yes, sir. . Mr. Evarts—What between you and the it after you had made that statement to him with reference to that communication? Mr. BUTLER asked to have the question put in writing, which was done. Mr. EVARTe—I will state that this evidence is offered in reference to the article that relates to tha; ao between the President and General q ‘ Mr. BUTLER—That is precisely as we understan it; but we also understand the fact to be that Gener: Emory was sent for before Mr. Welles appeared o1 the scene. I am instracted by my associates to =| that we are endeavoring to get the matter settle that General Emory recetved a note to come to the President at ten o'clock in the tg 8 that he got there before the Secretary of the Navy. That we cannot at this moment ascertain, but it does not ap- ir that this conversation was before Generak ‘was sent for. Mr. Evante—That is & matter of proof which ts to be considered when it is all in as to which is right ‘On our side and which on theirs, Mr. BuTter—The proof of what was said in tho Conversation is not to be considered as proof of whicty Was right on the facts, for | su; my learned opponent would not claim that if this was after ee Emory came there, they could put in the ev nce. ‘The Cnige Jestice considered the evidence com- pane and no Senator raising @ question it was ad- » ‘ ‘The question was again read. Witness—I cannot repeat the words the words of the President w what Emory means,” or “I don't is about” as T should think ow wha remarked that I thought he ought to 0" at when he was sending for his officers at such a time it must be for some reason; he hesitated somewhat; we had @ little conversation; I think he ‘said he would send for him; either that or that he would send and inquire into it; [think he said he Would send for him. Mr. Evarts—I will call your attention to the Zist of February, at the close of the Cabinet meeting on that day, At what hour was the held on shat ? nese—, , the regular hour, a4 Avene four that is the usual day ? 4 ‘That ts the of the Cabinet Yes, sir. ne rest it of the United States winen the sub« ject ir. was tioned? An. ot ve and after the Cabinet meeting was ¢losed tnt CONTINUED ON TENTH PAGR