The New York Herald Newspaper, April 11, 1868, Page 7

—_——— CONTINUED FROM THIRD F.AGE. ‘au made responsible to their constituer } pn matte tan rf ay termediate impeachmrit Stoond Shot poses itm: that Branohes of the gorerament saan nie kane dulp dchargsd is {s natural and proper that, secordli to and degree of ‘their fi they ‘should or 2. peor ig a eas in any case happened that the js of either or howeboranchey trince sch violation of duty auto justify 8 be determined by a free xa ination thers ong the hereo! amay have actually bap pened thet proceso on all or e! Rler of the itis duty as well as right of intelligent and fei zoos uss and prom them free; well to control them by the censorship of the public opiave re ing to the rules of the fait Sineein inion medy accord: sountitution’ wad ft oun pol be avoided that those who are to apply the remedy subject to im YY = as coustitution must in some degree a contempt or hatred against the trans- greasing party. These observations of Mr, Madison were made in reference to the freedom of the pres, ‘There were two views entertained at the time when the Sedition Jaws were passed concerning the powers of Con- gress on that subject. One view was that when the Constitution spoke of freedom of the press it referred rtain what that at freedom might be. That was the feeling in part which Mr. Madison was controverting in one oft the es which I have read, ‘The other view Was that the cominon law definition should Dot be followed, and that the freedom pro- vided for by the constitution, so far as the action of Congress was concerned, was an absolute freedom. But no one ever imagined that freedom of speech, in contradistinction to written libel, could be constrained by law of ” reas; for whether you treated the prohibition in the constitution as absolute in itself, or whether you refer to the common law for the definition of its limits and meaning, the result will be the same. Under the common law no man was ever punished criminally for spoken words. If he slanders his neighbor he must make good the injury to his neigh- bor in damages. But there was no such thi at common jaw as an indictment for spoken words. So that this prohibition in the constitu- Congress in is necessarily an Therefore this is a case not there is no law made prior to the act to punish the act, but it is a case where Congress is ex- preaaly Prohibited from making any law to operate in the future, What is the law to be? Is it to be de- rived, as the Managers imagined it should be, from the will, or sense of the propriety or ex) mey of each Senator? ‘the only rule, he says, which can be properly applied is that we must require the speaker speal prey, Now, who are to be the judges whether he speaks properly? In this case they are to be the Senate of the United States, on peer of the House of Representatives of the United States. Affd that is supposed to be the freedom of speech secured by the ubsolute prohibition of the constitu- tion. That is the same freedom of fe Senators, in consequence of which thousands of men were brought to the scatfold under the ‘fudors and Stuarts, That is the same freedom of speech which caused thou- sands of heads of men aud women to fall from the guillotine in France. That is the same freedom of ‘speech which has caused in our day more than once “order to reign in Warsaw.”’ Is that the freedom of cS) intended to be secured by our constitution, that a man must speak properly in the opinion of his judges? Mr. Chief Justice and Senators, I will de- - tain you but a very short time with a few observa- tions concerning the eleventh article, They will be very few, for the reason that the eleventh article, as I understand it, contains noth- ing new that needs notice from me. It sepes by the official copy of the articles which is before us that the tenth and eleventh articles were ‘adopted at a later period than the preceding nine articles. I suppose that the honorable Managers, looking over the work they had already performed, ‘and not feeling perfectly satistied to leave the matter in the shape in Which it then stood, came to the con- clusion to adopt this eleventh article, and they have compounded it out of the materials whtch they had previously worked up into others. In the first place they sald, ‘Here are speeches; we must have some- thing about them.” Accordingly the: — with the allegation that the President, at the xecutive Mansion, on a certain occasion made a speech, and, without giving his words, they attribute to him a certain intention to declare that this was not a Congress within the meaning of the constitution—all of which is denied in his answer, and there is* no proof to support the allegation. The President, by his whole course of conduct, has shown that he could entertain no such intention. He has sustained that fully in the answer, and I do not think it necessary to go into it here. Then they come to the old subject of the removal of Mr. Stanton. ‘They say that the President made this speech denying the coinpetency of Congress to legis- jate with an intent, und, following up his intent, en- ‘deavored to remove Mr. Stanton. I have formerly discussed that, and I will not weary the attention of the Senate by doing so any further. © Then they say he made this speech and followed up his intent by en- deavoring to get possession of the money appropri- ated for the military service of the United States. On that, too, I have said all that I desire to say. ‘Then they say he made it with the intenfto obstruct what is called the law for the better government of the rebel States, passed March 2, 1867; and in support of this they have oifered a telegram from Governor Parsons to him, and an answer tc that telegram from ‘the President on the subject of an amendment to the constitution of the United States, which tel were gent in January before the March when this law came into existence; and, so far as I know, this isthe oly coat they have offered on this subject. I leave, therefore, with this rergark, that article to the consid- eration of the Senate oF the United States. It must be unnecessary for me to say anything concerning the ienportanne re a case, _ ay now, og in the fu- ure. mt apparen @ny one in any wi concerned or in connection with this trial that 4 and will be the most conspicuous instance that ever has been or can ever be expected to be found of American justice or of American injustice—of that ew which Mr. Burke says is the great standli N- icy of all civilized nations; of that injustice which is certain to be condemned, which makes ever the wisest man mad, and which in the fixed and unal- terable order of God's providence 18 sure to return to pl e the inventor. ir. Curtis here resumed his seat, and the Senate, at twenty minutes past two o'clock, took a recess for fifteen minutes. * Testimony for the Defence. EXAMINATION OF ADJUTANT GENERAL THOMAS. After the recess Major General Lorenzo Thomas was called and took the stand in military costume. He spoke very fluently and readily, but at the same time with such indistinctness that the following report of his testimony 1s imperfect in many in- stances :— Question by Mr. StaNBERY—General Thomas, will you state how long you have been in the service? The answer, which was lengthy, was inaudible in the gallery. The concluding words were, “And have been in the army since that date.” Q. What ts your present rank? A. I am Brigadier General, and Major General by brevet. Q. What date does your breyet bear? A. I really forget. Q. Do you recollect the year? A. It was after I re- turned from one of my Southern trips in 1863, . During the year? A. i, sir. Towards the close? A. Towards the close of it. . When were you first appointed Adjutant Gen- eral? A. The 7th of March, 1567. On what service were you during the war, gen- erally? Give us an idea of — service. A, During tne organization of the War Department by Mr. Came- ron I was nominated Adjutant General; | accompanied him on his Western tour to Missouri and Kentucky: He then returned, and, afier making the report, he left and Mr. Stanton was appointed. I remained in the Department some time r Mr. Stanton was ap- aS The first duty I think he placed me—not the office—that is, one of the duties—he sent me down on James river to make ga of prison- ers of war under the arrangement le by General Dix. Mr. BuTLER—What ts the object of that? Mr. STaNBERY—To bring round the reasons why there was an interruption in the Adjutant General's jon. What was the next service? A. I went twice or times to Harrisburg to organize volunteers and to coreect some erroneous—not erroneous ex- actly, but in order to put skeleton ents together. Once to Philadelphia and twice to Harrisburg. I was sent to Harrisburg also at the time that Lee was in- vading Maryland and Pennsylvania, Afterwards I ‘was sent down on the Mfssissippi river. Q. What was your duty there? A, duty was threefold; first, to inspect ¢he army in that part of the country; second—— Mr. BUTLER—Would not that appear better by the order? A. Ihave it. Mr. STANBERY suggested that such a course would tend to delay. Mr. BuTLER—Very well; we don’t want to spend time tion _by Mr. Stanbery—What was your other ’ ‘A To take charge of negro regiments and or- ea Were you the first ofoer who organized those Deg eee rior to. your A. I think General u wiaea them before me. Butler What number of regiments were ized care? A. I organized upwards of 80,000 Solored men; ular number of regiments I don’t recollect. Q. After this service was performed what was the next special duty you were detailed on? A. I re- turned when 1 of the surrender of General Lee; I then came to Washington; the next oa. Ten- of Pro- red upon was to make an examination of the vost Marshal General throughout the - try, first at Washi and then at other cities, . What next? A. Then I was ordered on last rt is not yet in; passed Congr tat duty I have performed, but . fall under your proper duties as Adjutant General? A. Pei ly, and as Inspector of rmy. * mg thls last duty, the inspection of the cemeteries, ‘was the last special duty you have been called upon to perform? A. Yes, sir. ‘e When did you return from having a that Iagt special duty? A. I came to Washington on three diferent occasions. @. The last time—when vour last service was per- NEW YORK HERALD, SATURDAY, APRIL 11, 1868—TRIPLE SHEET. Tormed—the last detail upon the Sie 228 Bhan eae ha is toe the close of the year, fy, a our sence? A. General Townsend, tant-General, with the rank of colonel. Then you lost Mr, STANBERY—This is simply his lication President to restore him t@ his dutice, " a pS applied once or twice for restoration? A. On the 13th of February you received the order wit A. It was not @ note to me, our position? A. Yes, sir. ‘ou see¢he President, and did you see him between you received your order on m; I went over M OTLER—T on) ect hig leading, gross! y ol as 8 I leading. Was that figst time he spoke, eesumning that he had spoken? Mr. STANBERY—We will come to it in another way. ana ads “EY cet ett 2 ry ‘es, sir ; ought your 9 tng ae . ¥—It was. What hay e War eaget pe the el of Feuraary pe Ls og ta office on the succeeding day, t A. About twelve o'clock I went up m: and asked Mr. Stanton, then of War, should close the office the next day, the 22d of February. He di- rected me to do it, and I sent a circular round to the different departments. Q. Was not that order made by you as Adjutant General? A. Yes, sir, by my order. 2, No sit —— you had seen the President that ~ A. Yes, sir, What took place after you had issued that or- der? A. Very soon after I had issued it I received a note from Colonel Moore, private secretary of the President, that the President wished to see me; I im- mediately went over to the White House and saw the President; he came out of his library; he had two oO. He came out with. two in his le came out with two papers hand? A, Yes, sir; he handed them to Colonel Moore to read; they were read to me; one was addressed to Mr. Stanton, dismissing him from office and directing him to turn over to me the books, papers, &c., per- taining to the War Department; the other was ad- dressed to myself, appointing me Secretary of War adinierim and stating that Mr. Stanton been directed to transfer his office to me, Q. Was that the first time you saw those papers or oer of ers fe = foto ame ‘ou had no hand in writing those rs or dic- tating them? A. Nothing whatever. Pere Mr. BuTLER—That is rather leading again. Mr. STANBERY (to witness)—What was said by the eens at that time to you or by you to the Presi- | Mr. BurLeR—A single word, sir. Do you propose to pak in a conversation with the President? r. STANBERY—I do. party and the Presi- as BUTLER—Between this Mr. STaNBERY—I do. It was at the time she letters were handed him by the President. Mr. BuTLER—I have no objections. Mr. STaANBERY (to witness)—What did hé say? A. He said he was determined to support the con- stitution and the laws, and he wantec me to do the ae (great laughter); 1 told him I would. (Laugh- r) ). Q. What further took place? A. He then directed me to deliver this paper addressed to Mr. Stanton to him. tok Was that all? Did you then leave? A. Then I him that I was going to take somebody out of my departme! ith?me to see that I had delivered it; and I stated that 1 wou.d take General Williams, As- sistant Adjutant General in my department, Q. You told the President that you would take him along to witness the transaction? A. Yes, sir, Q. What did you do then? A. I then went over to the War Department and went into one of rooms and told General Williams I wished him to go with me. I didn’t tell him for what purpose; I didn’t tell him what for; but I told him to note what occurred. I then went to the Secretary's room and handed him Cotte Paper, which was that paper addressed to Q. What took place then? Did ne read it? A. He got up and said, “Good morning,” and I handed him at paper and he put it down on the corner of his table and sat down, and presently he took it up and read it. He then said, “Do you wish me to vacate the office at once, or will you gre me time to ges my “sald, “Act your piea- private property together?” sure.”” Q Did he say what time he would require? A. No, sir; I did not ask him. I then handed him the paper addreased to me, which he read. He asked me to give htm a copy. hat did ay say? A. In the meantime Gener- al Grant came in and I handed it to him; he asked if it was for him; 1 said “no,” merely for’his informa- tion; then I went down own room. Q, Is it below that of the tary’s? A. Below General Schriver’s room. ba Q. On the lower floor? A. Yes, sir; a copy made which I certified as Secretary of War ad interim, (Laughter.) I took that up and handed it to him; he then said, “I don’t know whether-I will obey your instructions; he stood there; nothing more and I left. Q. Was General Grant there at the second inter- view? A. No, sir, Q. Did General Williams go up with you the second time? A. No, sir. Q. What time of the day was this? A. I think it was about twelve o’clock when I went to see the Sec- retary, and after that I came down to the President's about one o’cidck, I suppose. Q. Immediately after you had written the order to close the office? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that all that occurred between you and the Secretary onthe 2ist. A. I think it was. Oh, no! no, I was thinking of the 22d. What followed? A. I went into the other room and I said that I should issue orders as Secretary of War. He said that should not, or that he would countermand them; and he turned round to Schriver and Townsend, who were in the room, and directed them not to obey my orders as Secretary of War. Q. Was that on the 2ist or 22d? A. The 2ist. He wrote a note and handed it to me. Q. Have you got that note? A. I gave it to you, I think, (Witness searches his pockets.) The note was dated the 2ist, Mr. Stanbery prodaces the paper, nok See if that je Se pores? A. That is it, sir; the iy of it is not in Mr, Stanton’s handwriting; he took it out to General boty yor, copy was made out and Mr. Stanton — it and handed it to me, . Will you read tt, py please? ir. BUTLER said, “Walt a moment, if you please; but so rapid was the witness that he had read the date, &c., and had got as far as “Sir’ before the honorable Manager could stop him, general laughter. examination Mr. Butler made no objection, and the witness read the letter, dated February 21, commanding him to abstain from issuing order other than in his capacity as Adjutant General of the id and signed by Edwin M, Stanton, Secretary of ar. at fos you see the President after that interview? ms . nt and Senators, the President and General Thomas after this would not object, as you will observe, to any or directions which the President gave, or any con- versation had between the nt and General Thomas at the time of issuing the commission; but now the commission has been issued, the demand nafembiery “order given, to. Ueneral thomas remptory 01 tO tind his own to keep out of the War Office, has been put in evidence, Now, su the President, by talking to General rv Gen- eral Thomas by talking to the President, confirm his own declarations for the purpose of making evidence ee CR nen the ae ber AA . solemn yote, in consequence, cision of the presiding oMicer, declared that ‘was such evidence of criminal intent between these aa ae to put in the acts of either to os can be showae Ly fy that can be shown anywhe 1 bimen foran act before any tribunal, whether ajudlctat court or other body of trial—I challenge any- body, Teay, to show that testimony can be given ot what the respondent said in his own behail, cape: cially to his servant or a Jortiort to his co-conspira- ‘al; that there was an a) is the act which is being tna tieetsita Sue ont ae cannot make evidence by talking to the Presi- dent, nor can the President by to Thomas. Even suppose that the act was as innocent a thing as Sore te to get up alaw- suit, then after the conspiraqy taken place and had eventuated in the act, they could not put in their declarations, There is not much evidence of such a conspiracy, because I suppose tf the President con- spirtng with anybody (o get uo a lawsuit, Le con- better or worse; but General Thomas | sptred with nis Attorney General, with his and not Adjut, nt General, Dut oven e ining’ 20 innocent as tha cond not afr it was dons, ‘Rave Deon all orated, th.’ time or changed by the declara- tions of the parties, one for the ae Therefore, Lv ’ aa need n “ther dence Of what the resident says, which is no a par about a removal merely in effect, no qi ut an ouster by force but _a question about a | removal. [uni the Mani to say that that order, in hig judgment, effected a legal removal, and it was not necessary for Mr. Stanton’s legs to re- move him out of the office—he was all out. If Stanton is out by the order, then it must be a legal order making a legal removal, not a forcible illegal ouster. But, says the learned Manager, the transac- tion ended giving the order and receiving the order. You are to have no testimo! sald Ly Aig President or General Thomas, ex- cept what was said just then, because that was the transaction that was the res gestae. Does the learned tleman forget his testimony? how he attempted to make ie it what took on ail the evidence between the ident and not what we are now going in! place at night? Does he forget the sort of a case against the lent, not at the time when that order was given, nor before, nor at the lod which we are now ree te ‘at night under his conspiracy counts? The gentleman has undertaken to give in evidence that on that night of the 2ist eral Thomas declared that he was going to enter that office by force. That is the matter which our evidence ig now addressed to—that the conspiracy between’ General Thomas and the President was one that should be executed.by the exhibition of force, in- tmidation and threats, And to prove that, what has he got? The declarations of General Thomas, not with it, and we offer tho e' thatwesentinthe | Witness—I did; 1 think the other matter eFiulsapecarsaar ime toetye ete | Ou mae Pela nu me wi wi we nection of ident was, Won eas ek ta wlan chin 1 material th ng | evidence, are undertaking a witness}—V. 5 by the Of the actor, the agent, the ofticer, w! ex) mn you wish to make? "Taiked the between the President of the United judge what it meant, an@ he said tt was simply to States and himself, say this is of Bo conse. es at ten o'clock on the following quence; that is no part of res gest; that ts no part of ‘ednesday; I then asked him if it suspended me showing what the relation between the } from of functions; he said “no, it had partics was. Why, Mr. Chief Justice and nothing to do with them: that is the point I wanted the learned M: that to make. (Laughter in the court.) was not to be ved a8 & witness Q. State when you next went to the War rt. because he was a conspi \ inal, some of peas teak le I went immediatety to the Presi- ns of the learned Managers mi dent ving ball, and stated the facts to him. have some ; but that is not tho wp: He made the same answer—“Very well; I wanted to ig not the claim which the learned get it into the courta.” I then went tothe War Omiec sented to your notice. It is that General Thomas, { and found the eastern door locked. This was on one & competent witness to 5) the truth here as f the 22d. I asked the messenger for the key, to whatever is pertinent to case, is not and he told me that he hadn’t i. I then Permitied to say what was the agency, what | went to Mr. Stanton’s room, the one witich he was the the con found him there with some what ie observations of the President of the United States at every interview antecedent to the time about which they have given us evidence. The Mansaore have given evidence as to what General Thomas been and I understood that they were all momtlers of Congress. They were all siting. I told the Secretary of War that I came to demand the office. He refusett to empowered by the President to say or do, something ive it to me, and ordered me-toe my room as Adjutaut whlet makes his statement it to commit the | General. I refused to obey; I made the demaad a President. Now, if tuey can show through General | second and a third time, ‘and was still refused ae by what olaim to im- | and ordered to own room. He then ban certainly prove by Genural Thomas, “to ny pleabe. Sete the room ‘ane mart to the oi Bot wen! e office date in reference to ‘whlen evidence has Deon offered, neral Schriver and sat down and had a.chat with all that did occur between the and lum- self, in order that if there has been the connection it Say De stated correctly and precise! nd that if there has been no connection between that dis- ‘+ on the He said:—The Senators will notice thatan attempt is now made for the first time in the course of this trlal—and I think I may ay, for the first time in the resenoe of any tribunal of justice in this country— yy respectable counsel to introduce in the defence of an accused criminal his own declarations made after the fact. Before this second interview referred to in the question the crime charged in tho first article, tf crime it be, was committed and completed. The time fhas not yet come, Senators, for the full dis- cussion of the question whether it was & crime for Andrew Johnson, on the the 21st of Pebra- him, as he is an oid friend. Mr. lowed me in there, and Governor Moorehead, &@ Member of Congress from Pittsburg, Pa., came in. Mr, Stanton told Governor Moore- head to note the conversation, and [ think he took notes of it ata side table. He asked me pretty much the same questions as before; whether I in- sisted on acting as Secretary of War and whether I claimed the office, I gaye the direct answer, “Yes.” Then there was some little chat between the Secre- tary of War and myself. 3 Did these members of Congress withdraw then? ‘es, sir. Q. Tell'us what beppened between you and the retary of War after they withdrew. A. I do not recollect what first occurred, but I said to him, “The bop tr ou have me arrested”—for I found it was. at his au! was arrested. made under oath, as we propose to have them made now, but his declarations, not made under oath, when the President was present and could con- tradict him—not as now, under oath—not of & conversation when the President could contradict him or might have. He has gone into all that to make a case against the President of this conspiracy; and not merely that, but on the 22d again; and not only that, but so far back as the 9th of March, at the President’s levee, brings a witness here with the eyes of all Maryland upon him. Mr. BUTLER and Senator JOHNSON (simultaneous- ly)—Delaware! (Laughter.) Mr. STANBERY—Delaware—‘ With the eyes of all Delaware upon him.”” He proves by that witness, or ary, 1868, with intent to violate the act regulating the Mr. BuTLeR—I object to the conversation. between | tenure of civil offices to issue an order for the re- | the Secretary of War and General Thomas at a time moval, as averred in the first article,‘of Mr. Stanton | when we have not put it in, because we put in only tow tine eres tr ould? Staak | tue Rasnny wt Aan sce ad was ance of the act and of the Senate, then ordered | withdrawn. ek! -calgbaibabah oe the suspension under the same law and by the same The CHIEF R—If it was immedi: - President and of the same Secretary, aud whereof he ie pr aedeely Aine wards it is a part of the same conversation. had due notice. For myself I stand , a3 the Mr. BUTLER—Does General Thomas say it was the learned counsel has seen fit to make chal- | same conversation? le in’ this stage of the case, to that if | Witness—Mr. Stanton turned tome and got talking th ure of Ofice act ig to be considered a vaild act the attempt to remove Mr. Stanton in contravention of the provision of that act, which declares a re- moval to be a misdemeanor, is itself a misdemeanor, not simply at common law, but by the law or the in avery familiar manner with me. I said, “The next time you have me arrested, please don’t do tv before I get something to eat.” (Laughter.) J sale “I have had nothing to eat or drink .” (Continued laughter.) He put his arm thinks he proves, that on that night General Thomas also made a declaration involving the President in this conspiracy, a3 a party to a conspiracy, to keop Mr. Stanton out of office. Well, now, how are we to defend against these charges or declaration’ brought up in regard to the 9th, the 21st, the 224 and again as early a8 March? Does not the transaction run all along through? How is the President to defend himself against it but by calling General Thomas in the first place? May he not call General Thomas? 1s Generil ‘Thomas impeached here as a conspirator, 80 that his mouth is shut with regard to the transaction? Not atall. He ts brought here asa witness. What bet- ter evidence can we have to contradict thia conspiracy than that of one of the conspirators? For if Thomas did not conspire the President did not conspire. A man cannot conspire by himself alone. How are we to contradict without this testimony? What was stated in regard to the night of the 2Ist? There is an interview on the afternoon of the 21st. I wish to show that when he received that order he gave no orders and gave no Instructions to use force, but at the subsequent meeting on the af- ternoon of that day, when Thomas returned and told him that Stanton refused to give up the omice. The President gave no directions and entered into no conspiracy. And that accordingly, on the night of the 2ist, when General Thomas spoke of his own intentions, he had no authority to speak for the President. It seems to me that that is the very best teatimony we can give and the most legal and ad- missible. It is not after the transaction is ended, not after the proof on the other side is ended as to the conspiracy, but it is long before, They are not through with their proof, and may have evidence tending to prove it. Mr. BUTLER—Mr. President,I think I must have made myself very poorly understood if what 1 sald has been fairly met or attempted to be met by the learned counsel, This is my objection—not that they shan’t prove by General Thomas that he did not say what he did say to Mr. Burleigh. He will be a bold man to say that he did not say it, however—not that they shan'’t prove that he said what he did say to Mr. Karsener; not that they shan’'t show any fact which is competent to be shown. But the proposi- tion I make Is a legal proposition; and it has not been met or touched by the argument. The counsel do not pretend to show that General Thomas did not say to Mr. Burleigh “we are not to use forces proving what was said between Thomas and the President. We way that the President can- not put in his d lon, and I challenge a law book to be brought in before tne Senate, common law, Parliamentary law, statutory law, constitu- tional law or a law unto yourselves. In any law we meet no such proposition as that was ever held—it never was held. Go to your own reading, tell me if a case where, after # man has‘ done an act which act is co:nplained of, and when he ig on trial for that act, can bring his servant or his vo-conspirator and show what he sald to him, in order to his justification. What thief could not de- fend himself by that means—-what murderer could not defend himself by tiat means—showing conver- sation, the one for.the other and the other for the one, after the act done? Now it is said— and I hope this case will not be carried on by some little snap catch of a word— that I-said there was a removal, and therefore I must have said that it was a legal removal. I say this: there never was a legal removal of Mr. Stan- ton. There was an act of removal, go far as the President of the United States could exercise the power; so far as he could do it; 8o far as he is crimi- nally responsible for it; so far as he must be held to every intendment of the con- sequences of it, as much as though Stanton had gone out in obedience to it, because, Mr. President, he is the chief Executive. He has the army and the navy. He has issued an order to an officer of the army to take ion; but I am now upon this pro ition—not that the President shan’t ask General Thomas, “Sir, do you conspire?” and I will ask him in return ‘Do you conspire with the President?” Do you do this or do you do that? But my proposition is that they cannot put in what the President said to Thomas and what Thomas said to the President after he had con the order, The learned counsel says, ‘ Why, these mtlemen Managers have put in what General Thomas said all along.” 1 understand that; 80 we can what the President said all along. It is the commonest thing in all courts of justice where I have seen cases tried and where J have not the books are all one way; it isthe commonest thing in the world to put in the conversation of a criminal made down to the day of trial, made the moment the, oMcer brin; him and puts him into the dock; but 0 ever heard of a case of bringing what he said to his accomplice after the act was done, be the act what it may? It is said we must allow them to put this act in because the President cannot de- fend himself otherwise, He has all the facts to defend himself. What 1 mean to say is that he shan’t defend himself by word of mouth; and I do not claim that the conspiracy was made between the 2ist of February and the 7th of March, I claim that it was made before that time, and I expect to be abie before we get through to convinee everybod, eise of it. I say that I find certain testimony of it between these two dates. I do not object to them asking General Thomas what he said to, Mr. Burleig! or what he said to any one else. I have put in what he said about it; but as to putting in the President's declaration after the time, I do not want | more of these exceptions, We have the simple orders given by the President to his subordinate. It is a very harmless thing, quite in the common course, given to him with a flourish of trumpets—‘“1 want you to sustain the constitution and the law;” and the officer says, ‘1 shall sustain the constitution and the law.” Don’t we understand what that is? It is a declaration made for the purpose of evidence, to any officer as he commissions him, “Ni ‘ou to sustain the constitution and the a and solemnly that officer says, «T will sustain the constitution and laws.” Why was it done in his case? It was done for the purpose of blinding whatever court should try the case, in order that it might bet og in as an exemplification— “Oh, I didn’t mean to do anything but to sustain the constitution and the laws, and I sald so at the time— ut him out of the and ordinary course of Eiings, and it is to prove any number of those declarations, got up and manufactured by this criml- nal at the time when he was going.to commit the crime, and after the crime was committed then to give him the opportunity to manufacture testimony Such as never Was heard of in any court of justice. Mr. Evants—Mr. Chief Justice, if the crime, as it ‘1s called, of the President of the United States was at ba) this written order was handed by im to Gener ve cupied your attention with other and later Lar ings in this belief? Inthe removal of Mr. ton ir tenges Wacinnteas Gatelvar acon jan: introdu and the tation of General Thomas there at pai that the force was it to be ‘wrought into this case the Presiaergt of the United States, with this act, this fact, tuis res gestae of the was drawn from ‘he hearsay evidence of what General Thomas had and by the pledge, of the Ma rs that they would President, with it; and now, in the rece of a court,of justice and in the Senate of the United lanagers of the House of Representatives, showing in the name of all the ple of the United ‘states, say that when we seek to show what did ocgur between the President and Gen- ral Thomas "p ‘@ the time of the only act and the Lal a fact that they Latroduce on the 22d General Thomas— by hearsay e'vidence of General Thomas—statements of what he meant to do, they have sought to implicate the dent in the intent to cause force to be a by the pledge tuat they would comnect the President su, United States. I am not surpi that that utter- | round my neck as he used to do in & ance was made here at this stago@f the case after | familiar mAnner, and ran his hand through my hair, the learned counsel who closed his elaborate | and turned round to General Schriver and said, and exhaustive argument for the defence | “Sonriver, have you got @ bottle here? bring it had ventured on the bold declaration here | out.” (Roars of ‘laughte! Schrtver unlocked his inthe presence of the Senate that an | desk and took out a small vial; the Secretary then attempt to commit @ misdemeanor, made such by the proposed that we should have a spoonful of whiskey; laws of any sovereignty on earth, was not itself a said I would take a little; General Schriver crime consummated by the very attempt, and was | poured it out into a tumbler ‘and divided it equally. not itself a misdemeanor. I pass from that question Mr. STANBERY—He shared it evenly? A. Yes, he now, remarking, with all respect, that it should not | took the glasses up this way (indicating) and meas- have been referred to in the discussion. The only | ured them with his eye. Presently a messenger uestion before the Senate is whether it is competent | came in with a full bottle of whiskey, and the cork or an accused criminal, high or low, ofilcial or non- | was drawn and he and I took a drink together. oficial, President or private citizen, after the fact Q. Was that all the force exhibited that day? A. charged against him, to make evidence for himself | That was all. by his own declaration, even to a co-conspiravor or Q. Have youever at any time attempted to use to anybody else. ‘That is all the point that is in- | force to get into that office? A. At no time. volved in this question; and I reiterate what was Q. Have you ever had instructions from the Presi- said, after due reflection, by my associate Manager, | dent to use force, intimidations or threats ? that there is not an authority fit to be brought into a Mr. BuTLER (to witness)—Stop a moment. “At court of justice that does not denounce the proposi- | any time?” that brings it down to to-day; but I sup- tion as hearsay, and as a@ violation of tho rules of | pose the ruling does not come down so far as that. evidence. L am amused at the declaration of | Ask the witness for any that occurred prior to the counsel that the Senate has attempted hearsay evi- | 2ist or 22d of February, and I am content. dence in behalf of the constitution. The declaration Mr. STANBERV—Weil, we Will say up to the 9th of of @ co-conspirator made in the prosecution of @ | March. common ierany and common design never was Mr. BUTLER--The 9th of March Is just as bad as {t held to be hearsay evidence. On the contrary, tt ts | would be to say till to-day. The President was im- Primary evidence, and in the language ot our eached on the 22d of February; but I suppose he own courts is in most instances the only evi- ad got up his case then. dence which the nature of the case offered Mr. Evarts—We have a right to the negative up to admits of It rests upon the simple proposition | the point for which you have given any positive evi- of the law, which addresses itself to the common | dence, which ts the 9th of March. judgment and common sense of mene that Mr. BuTtER—We have given no evidence as to What @ man does by another he does by uimself. | what instructions were given by the President. We If the President conspired with Lorenzo Thomas to | nave given evidence of what Mr. Thomas has said, violate a law of the country, and made an agreement | put if there is anything in any rule of law this testi- ‘With him for that purpose, whatever Lorenzo Thomas mony cannot be peony did in the prosecution of that agreement is evidence Mr. Evarrs--The point, if anything, Mr. Chief Justice, on which Mr, Karsner was allowed to state the interview between Generali Thom- not only against himself, but against bis principal. It is the law not only in this country but of every coun- try where the common law exists, Itisaquestion | ag and himself on the vth of March, was not open to discussion; and I say that the question | that General Thomas? statement then made opened here is not @ question for discussion, use | might be held to be either from something that had every text book of the law declares that the state- | been proved on the part of the Managers from some- ments of the accused after the fact is not admissible on his own motion. This is a subsequent conversa- tion between himself and his co-conspirator aiter his crime was completed; after he had sent forth his letter of authority; after he had tssued his order for the removal of Mr. Stanton, and after the demand had been made Thomas. It is @ couversation between those co-conspirators offered now before the Senate in order 4 e@xecnipate tha Presidont, 1 say to Senators agaili that the law does not allow any man to make evidence for himeelf after the fact. How easy would it be for bim to say to Thomas that thing ‘that would de proved on the part of the Mana- e committal of the President. Now, certainly un- r the rulings made as well as under the la a principles of law and of justice, the President fe entitled to a negative through the witness who Knows ‘thing that has been proved ae to what occurred between the President and this witness. Mr, BUTLEB—I do not propose to argue any farthor, for tf the point is not suficiently clear to everybod, no @i nent of mine can make it plainer. i simply object to the question as to what had been the directions of the President down to the 9th of March after he was impeached. If that testimony night when he found that ape ? was being | can ve pub im to the 9h of March it can be put lo made in the Oapitol, aertl ir. Thomas, | down to this aay. To prove that Mr. Thomas did uot our only object is peace! K and, quietly | say a thing to Mr. Karsner, they offer te prove that to apply to the courts of justice ;" “Why, | the President did not say anything to Mr. Thomas. Mr. Thomas you must not touch a hairon the head Mr. EVARTS—That ig not to the point. The point of the Secretary of War” “why, Mr. Thomas, we | ts that negatively we can show up to and include a both have the profoundest respect for the decision of | date concerning which they Have given tn evidence the Senate this day made, notice of which lias been | what they olatta to implicate the President. The served upon us;” “why, Mr. Thomas, we both recog- | President had not given any instructions to use nize the Tenure of Office act, and we have no inten- | force, They have ae eviceace that this witness, on 9th of March, spoke of his interest in future to kick Mr. Stanton out. And now we propose tc show that up to that time the President of the Umted States had never given authority or direction of any kind to use force. Mr. BUTLER—How does that prove that Mr. Thomas did not say ao? Mr. EVARTS—It does not prove it in the case. It only proves that he sald it without the authority of the President - the United States, which is the point of, ‘sTicR Airected Mr. Stanbery to re- jon to writing. 3, of the Managers, remarked, in a low tone, “Oh, it fa not worth while. It is not worth wtule to appeal to the Senate any more after that de- cision.’ Mr. EVARTS, having overheard the remark, said, “Do we understand the Manager to say it is not tion to violate that act atall.” The law declares that if the order was unlawful the unlawful intent alleged ia the averment ts proof of the fact itself, and cannot be disproved by declarations. The rule has been settled in every case that ever has been tried in the Senate of the United States heretofore that any general rules of evidence ap- pointed for a common law proceeding cover those proceedin, If there is an ex¢eption to be found to that in trials of this kind hitherto | challenge its production, The Cuikse Justice said he would submit the ques- tion to the Senate; and, the yeas and nays having bean ordered, the question was taken upon allowing the question to be put, and it was decided in the affirmative—yeas 42, nays 10—as follows: YEas—Senators Anthony, Bayard, Buckalew, Cattell, Cole, Conkiing, Corbitt, Davis, Dixon, Dooiitie, Edmunds, Ferry, Fessenden, Fowler, Frellaghuysen, Grimes, Headerson, Hen- Sy dricks, Ho Johnson, McCreery, M jorriil of Me., Morrill of Vi. Morton, Norton, Bi ot UN, worth {While because the las decision covered the Patterton of Tenn., Pomeroy, point Mr. BuTLER—Whatever was sid over here was Sbermi 8 Sumner, Tipton, Trumbull Van Winki, Vickers, Stew: Willey, ‘iidama, Wilson, Yates—42. said between ourselves, + Nays—Serators Cameron, Chandler, Conness, Cragin, The Cuier Justicg—The counsel must address the Drake, Harlan, Howard, Nye, yy, Thayer—10, Chief Justice. So the question was put to the witness as follows;~- ‘The question, having been reducer to writing, was What occurred between the President and yourself at the second interview on the 2ist of February? Witness—I stated to the President that I had de- livered the communication, and that he gave this answer. Mr. STaANBERY—What answer? Witness—The answer, “ Do you wish me to vacate at once, or will you give me time to take away my private property ?” and that I answered, “ At your pleasure; I then stated that after delivering the copy of ‘the letter to him he satd, “I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or resist them; this I mentioned to the President; his an- swer waa, “ Very well, go on and take charge of the office and perform the duties.’ Q. Was that all that passed? A. That yas all that read as follows “Did the President at any time prior to or Includ- direct you to use to get possession The Cuter Justice said he would submit it to the Senate whether the question should be allowed. The vote was taken without a division, and the question was permitted to be asked. The question being pot to the witness, he replied, “He did not.” Q. Please to state what conversation you had with Mr. Burleigh on the night of the 2ist of February? A. Mr. Burleigh came to my house and asked me whether I was appointed Secretary of War; I told him ‘Yes;’? I mentioned what had occurred between Passed. Mr. Stanton and myself; [think It was that which Q. What time in the afternoon was that? A. This | ied him to ask me what I was going to do; was immediately after giving the second letterto| I had had two conversations—one — with r. Burleigh and the other with Mr. Wilkeson, and Tait to one of them, I cannot tell which, that if I found my door locked I would break tt open; and to the other I said that [ would call on General Grant for force; Ihave got the conversations mixed up and cannot separate them. Both conversations took place that evening. Mr. Burleigh asked me what time I was going to the War OMmce, I told him L would be there about ten o’clock next day. I think he said he would be there xt day. ita th you ask him to come? A. I did not. Mr. Stanton. Mr. BuTLeR—I withdraw my objection to that con- versation. (General iaughter) Mr. STANKERY—That is ez post facto, To wit- ness—Was this before you got Mr. Stanton’s order to retire to your room or was it afterwards? A. It was we ia you see Mr. Stanton again that afternoon? . 1 did not. ¢ Or the President? A. NotafterI left him this time. What firat happened to you the next morning? . The first thing that happened to me next mornt Q. What was the conversation you had with Mr. es thelr coming to my Mouse—the Marshal of the Karsener on the 9th of March. A. 1 should like to District, with the assistant Marshal and the consta- | describe that. Q. What did you know of Mr, Karsener? A, I knew nothing about him whatever untill saw him then. If I had been asked the question [ would have said I had never seen hit before, although my atten- tion has since been called to the fact that | had once seen him in the spring of 1827, when 1 happened to ble, and they arrested me. . What me in the morning was that? A. About eight o'clock; it was before [had my breakfast; I Sikea the Marshal if he would permit me to see the President, suoply that! might taform him that I had been arrested, and he kindly assented, although he said we must not lose any time; he went with me to | be at home. the President, and I went into the room where the Q. What took place at the time? A. It was to- President was; I stated that I had been arrested, at | wards the end of the President's and a whose suit | did not know. be a reception nd Il was eral —— about e door Mr. BUTLER (to the witness)—Stop a moment. To Sanlag wae Ges word ant he when [ saw @ person pushing forw: the Chief Justice—Does the presiding officer under- by the hand. I looked surprised. He mentioned stand the ruling Cs Senate to apply to what took his name, bot ke cannot ecoled i 1 understood Dim lace the next da; that was Castle, mative Pitne Curer Justice—Phe Chief Justice so under- A 4 He says, however, that he did n stands it. use those words. said he knew father Mr. STANBERY (to the witness)—Go on, and my brother, and that he had known me forty ‘Witness—The President said, ‘* Ver; ears ago. | sup} that must have been about the ’ the place I want it in—the courts.” He advised me me I 8) of. He held on to m: Twas cur. Geo ou inane suber ond fe | pened ve mon manny, enon a cameo ‘a me as hovel; I at you I had been arrested, but asked you } tried to iget away from him but he then Se thes Whatl should 00. 14 interrupted the witness, ana | Ne,,Wee ®, Delawarien and sald “The ees. of ail ackty the Chiet dustice wictler that was within the | polawere are ia ny, expect you to. stan t leavi Tine seanoRRY—It 18 a part of this conspiracy. | A8,L yes shout lenving ib (Laughter. ‘aD fon , BUTLER—I have no doubt of it. (Laughter, Me STANBERY (to the witness)—Did you go fnto the court? s—! presented myself to Judge Cartter. used Talsed meee saeny What happened then? way a) —I objec am si ing firm?’ Then ject. RY (to the Witness)—Were ‘you admitted hi “Are you to kick this ba: | a wee “Oh, SorPkiog bin out by and by.” iret to give ‘sail in $5,000; 1 Are you certai . it’? came from ‘was then discharged from custody; tut there Is one nis firat? A. Certainly, nw wn ad not tn- int which I wish to state, if adn feasible; Lasked the | tend to a Stanton at o4i; on the con- judge distinctly what that ball raeant, trary, Mr. Stanton always treated mg with kindness, and I would do nothing to treat ita with disrespect. irae aecer acm °° the Chief Just ir honor allow tha: Mr. Mr. STANBERY (to the Witness)—That js another asenion or amy Svar ave Ray idea of kicking Mr low lorag did you remain there?’ | q. How came you to use the word at all? A. Be- Witness—I I Was there altogether about | cause it was p ay meath. my Irlends came in to give bail; 1 had Q Did you way it sertously or in a jocular way? me, Duteven my wile. ANBBRY--After you were, ndmitved to ball aud you go to Wye War Department CONTINUED ON TENTH PAGR Stanton fol- | 7 ae MIgUSNLANBOUS WASHINGTON NEWS. WasHINaTON, Apri! 10, 1868. Maxstontof as Consul of R,1ssla at Sitka. A Free Passage fur Dele, tates to the Chicage Comventio.% The railroads terminating at’ Chicago wilt pass delegates to and from the Republican National Con- Vention free of charge upon the a,vplication of the chairman of each State Republican Central Com- mittee for a suMcient number of tickets for their respective delegations, Appiications mi ‘st be made to the presidents or superintendants of th %r respec- tive roads, Crete Applying for Recognition and . Sid. Mr. Speaker Colfax laid before the House of . tepre- sentatives to-day the address of the Mvtional A: #ent- bly ef the provisional government of Wrete, as. !D& Congress for recdgnition and for aid ta secure th ir complete emancipation and the indeporvd 2nce of th isiand. It was referred to the Committee 4)n Foreign Affairs, Soldiers and Sailors’ Bounties, Some time’ ago the House of Represen ‘tives passed a resolution addreased to the Secrem *Y of War relative tothe amount of land necessary to, meet the requirements of bill No. 940, to equal the bounties of soldiers, sailors and marines who'ser “4 in the late war for the Union, inthe event of it#a coming,a law. The Secretary saysthat in March, 16a ¥ there was a carefully prepared estimate made‘of tie * money required to pay'these bounties under a law then pentting that was substantially the same ag bus No. 940, except as to the manner of making the pay+- ment, The sum was estimated at $253,691,000, Is) April, 1866, for additional bounties the estimate was' $58,634,000, The expenditures under the bounty acts passed 80 far indicate that thig amount estimated ta rather short than in excess of the actual requirementae Deducting this- latter sum paid on account of the additional bounties from the amount of the first esti- mate and the remainder gives a pretty close approxt- mate of the further amount that would be required: under the bill in question, namely, $195,050,800, whick in land at $425 per acre wil require 156,045,440 acres. No note is taken of the local bounties not paid by the United States, as the Secre- tary sare te has mo means of ascertaining the amoun HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. WASHINGTON, April 10, 1868. The House met at noon. A message was received from the Senate announcing the passage of several Private bills. UNEXPENDED APPROPRIATIONS. # Mr. Burne, (rep.) of Me., offered a resolution directing the Committee on Appropriations to inquire into the expediency of defining more accurately the time and manner of carrying unexpended approprt- ations to the surplus fund and returning the same to the Treasury. It was adopted. NAVIGATION OF THE 10WA RIVER. Mr. Lovonringg, (rep.) of Towa, introduced a bill to deciare the lowa river in the State of lowa unnavi- gable above the city of Wapello, which was referred to the Committee on Commerce. RIGHT OF WAY. Mr. FLANDERS, of Washington Territory, intro- duced a bill granting the right of way to the late Washington Coal Company, in Kings county, Washington. Territory, which was referred to the Committee on Territories. DEPARTURE FOR THE SENATE CHAMBER. The SrEAKER announced that after the House ree assembled he would present various executive com- munications, but that no other business would be done. ‘The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. Washburne, of Ill, as Chairman, and proceeded to the Senate chamber to atvend the im- peachment trial. EXECUTIVE COMMUNICATIONS, ‘The members of the House, at twenty minutes past five o'clock, returned to their hall, when the Speaker’ lald before the House several executive communica tions, when an adjournment took place. Ask for a Waltham Watch.” IT I8 THE BEST; IT IS THE CHEAPEST. ?. B, BYNNER & CO., 189 Broadway, N. Te Hossin#s Sweetest Opera, Air is, Not More ishing ¢! a ir perfumed (as even- Tas ae Sphalonte sew pertume,: “FLOR DE MAYO," late the nose, Sold by all A.—Ward’s Perfect Fitting Shirts, Broad- way and Union square ; also at 387 Broadway. 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