Chicago Daily Tribune Newspaper, February 6, 1879, Page 9

JHICAGO, TRIBUKE: ‘TIIURSDAY. ' FEBRUARY 6, 1879—TWELVE PAGES, ’ <796k BLODGETT. e ing's Bitter Threats 1 gAgainst Him. g . fondant’s Testimony Re- ding tho Germania and Hibbard. M= t Mo Snid to Bangs ’“‘;fi'&? Withliolding That Indictment. S ghe Charge and Answer About Borrowing from Assignees. e e timony of Mark Kim- Tesulall and Mr. Horton, the Lawyer. e A iho De! llegad Tyrannical Conduct in ; gthn Case of One George H. Walker. The Fifth Charge—Favoritim to Jonkins, Hancock, and Campbell, Yidaton ef {ho Rankruptey ~ Law, Ete.—A General Denlal, A HESING. A M TERRINGTON! fhe Blodgett tnvestizating Committee got to Busioess yunnmnuy yesterdsy morning, all riles Leiog promptly on hand. Without pre- Jimlosries, the takiug of evidence was at once eded with, “l‘lcr'.(.‘hulu.l. Johnson was called and ex- pined by M. Goudy. o sald that s few days alter Mr. Hesloz was released from {mprison- ment, he met htm in the bascment of Lhe Staafs- Ziitung Bullding, and waos talviog sbout the tral. 1o thie course of the conversation, Mr. Tleslog sald Judge Blodzett was o villain and & souncrel, and he would follow him and report L. Cross-examination was waived. e, Augusius M. terrington, examined by Yr. Gouds, sald he was personally scqualnted with Mr. Hesing, and lad heard him make {hrests agalns Judge Blodgett. The first occa- 4lon that he remembertd was a few weeks aftor Hestng's convletion. He hod busincss at the il, and went juto the room where the con- Yicted partles oll were, and had a eon- yersatlon with Mr. Hesln In tho latter it of the conyur tion, in referring {0 Judge Blocgett, Mr. Heslog sald, speaking B hesvene fa. the Cotrt-rooui ot the time of Bis sentence, that 1f ne had bad, a plstol he yould haye shiot tho * G—— d— erippled — 1 [n Decenber last, 88 witness \rus com- fog eut of tlie Federal Court rovm Jown on to the street, ho met Mr. [esing, who wasyery auch cxeited, and was talkng very loud, Wit- gewsdld nut know at the time who Heslug was 1aikfng to, nor did he now, unless be was talk- fog specially at witncss bolore he saw him. ey were ruing n opuosite dircctions, so thut 1hiry would nsect, 'l‘lm{ met in the ball at the sortboad of the buililing in whicl the court- toom I, Heelng was, shaking bis fists, beuting the air, and apeukiug In a very wild, loud tone of yowe, decluimme thut he bad telegraphod to Wastiogton to nave the G— e — — {mpeached, puinting up ubove in the dircetion ot tiecourt-root; “und uvow,? he suld, ¢ I 1 going to get even with bim. Tuls was durlog the time e question. wes belng agl- tated as to whether there would be proceedings foCongresn or nut, llcsing's manner was ¢X- travarant, wild, aud visbictive, Ua crossexamination by Gen, Btiles, Mr Hersington sald bis pructiceas a lawyer was rachier special at the present tine—he represent- el the Chicago & Northwestern Rallroad Com- A ¥ During that {nterview which you lind with Mr. Mesing In all, was anytnog sala by Hesivg tbout auy £20.000arrungetient s’ » My recollection {8 thero was not, although I bad been talking with Mr, Hesing before, und beunderstanus that he then told me of o traus- actlon thut was partly repeated to wme this morn- ing by him; but I think uot. Iwould bo rlsd turecollect it It Lie dud stato it to mo I ought 1o remember it und would be glad to remumber ft,und state It; but lmuab sweur thut 1 did Lear bim say it on thut Geeuslon, or perhops on say other," *Did Mr, Hesing, at that foterview which you bad with bis (n fal), i substanco state thai ho brihad an arrapgement with Mr. Wiuston by which €2,000 should be ralsed for the protec- tlon of the whisky men, nuik did not you respond In substance thut you were shocked to near such A thlg 1 *Well, whether it was then or not, I did hear wome statenent of that kind, but I do not wish tube underatood as wwearing it was then, 1 koew tlut a statement of thut kind was made by somie person 10 me, and that that wasmy reply.” v “In full, ur elewhieral® “It ‘was not told to me directly by Mr. Nestng; it was tald to me hy some person else 8 having come from Hesings bue 1 remember l"!nrly to whoever told me—whether it was M. llesing or sowe person fn Lis foterest— ®us, that | was not mflI{ shocked to hear ft, but that Leould not und did vot bellove the state- went, aud | do not believ the statement.” 1.1,]".“ you zecollect what called you uver to the Y * | bad businesa in the 8herl(Ms office bolow, ;ml belug un suisewhat friendly terus with Mr. |5unz. 1 mude bim o friendly cail, uid on somo hflucr gentleuien who were under sentence. 1 M 0 busluess fu Lo room where they wers coatued.” m"\,yur vislt there was & friendly one to Hes- i })e;. sir." “Did vou state what you yourselt would un- krtahe to do on Heal R thiok not, 1 would be unsblu to separate ,e statenents that { imight have made then to mr:] {rum any stutement that 1 might have K 6-( any other thnea on thut subject.” sl recolleet of stating at that thne In 3 u{um that you would use your influence to ® Uit the sentenves wero equalized, us be- i50 pmaelf wid Rehiot and some uthiers 0 hot remember that Isald the seotences, .".‘m-m “ecnlfzed! s w term that is rather ‘“'uu. and whica I don’t quite understand odid Lbelne, as you kuow, a strict Democrat, L““wlu\u o luflucnce with the Grant Admin. et aad I therefors would bave nothiog »Li you, on that oceaston, use you - s o quied Mr. flestug? B i “wfii "tzn v:xyfl much shocked.” inents ou by NE\!\{: Induce Loy to become qu::’:i.l‘g besrapod timg [ Mt W4 5ot loni, becaugo about the b Mt Lhls remark was made bis daughter umu‘? the stalrs, and he mot her and em- Y, er, and § retired about that time, " bt ou were on friendly terms at that time, Y\vl 4 the Judie and with Hesing1 oo 'ld Mr; und Lo now, so far as I know. £ :m‘ Ivku;z\:olnzmldu nh'.fl Heslue fojus- ° o Judpe Bludgery -llllnal“y-e' Aok Holuiicn: e E1 polENNG'S THREATS, N Amineg b ";lm.-lumur,’wu sworn, and ex- e gy e Goudy. He served on the jury ¢ Uulted Btates District Cours in June, ) ‘:::":::ewumt when Hesing and the oth- lajap, nced. Ho saw Heslng aftgrwards “id 5 “}f‘l"é:"'l‘r’v‘.'{ bim make aoy thrests; it so, could not siate th e ? ¢ the language, Heo was k;{,g;mt towards dudge Blodgetss used very Breaeggr <02 L thought. There wore soveral 4 ban you . Stato In substance what was said1? -bon-llge.,?,"""“m of [t was thut be thonght Lo ot e 'uufi"f‘lfl there very loug, and if bie got Uit acuteucy Gy fenarith Judge Blodgett for T 0 tross-ezgmination. Crenzy l‘l{\lwlmxan, 8 farmer, who lives st with A dsdu sworu. 1le bad no acquaintance Ml gy umflk. but saw him during bis trial "‘.l"-aend-m, ;u."m:::.:?:mw" wituess belug M ¥6u bear Liza ahout that time, o after his » gotel” ¢ A short time after they wers sentenced five or six of the jurymen one Alternoun went over to the Jall to sea them. room, umil he recogaized us, and said, *Uentle- men, L am glad to see you. saainst you. T can't say so much ss to Judze Biodgett. I will follow Bim,* sald he} *1 have a guod many friends ot work for me. soon be out of here. low him,'—I am nnt_positive which,—'as long as hie fs Judge.’ Hedenounced lim in very se- vere terms, and was very much excited," Mr. Roott—Did he wive an. animosity toward Judue Bloduett \*For sentencing bim to two years In prison. e mates thing,” * Dl e give any reason why thatsentenco ‘was unjust or severef " “J thlnk one of the jurymen sald that he oupht oot to denaunce terins, when he was doing his ug-nry, ns we nd T am sure we thought—-" at did ¢ say! I am not asking you what That w "'7""& you sald.” o i marks and to do so. some —l 3 tion qu euril or Ilesiog, this an Vucke pal und say party t 4| to un fusider i8 would hove outsider vory little value, ately, 1 supposv, we neupio on the inslde nre fn very poor condition tu buy this stock at prescat, I am_Insolvent Raster to muke littlo stock that to time, und therefore [ don’t think that you can expcet that any of the partics fo the corpo- ration will be IP! 10 buy the stock.’ Bome fur- ther question ! setling the securlty, unziety, as did Mr. be obtaiued for the paper that it was possible to itesing, at some stace in 1he interyiew, —1 think at a carl Mr, Vocke to give have thne on thiannd upon Lisother habititles,— a8 he bad expected und did then expect to get on Lls vther labilitics,—~be thouzhit be coult Mr. obiatn. matter {0 get any money. tence, make any threats agal We went 1o Hesing's I have mnothing amid 1 wilt T will stay by him or fol- reasous for his the Judee in severa "“That was all be had aeainst him—the sen- tence.” **Tlic Information I want is this: DId he pive **Yea, air. Mr. $10,000 und preference., Staal wmy 83, turned bty “Mr. Vacke, fact of Bir, pled, in substapce, will soy hero that this was tho_first time 1 had eyer lcurned the fuct thut Mr, Vocke held these clolms sguinst Mr. Iesing. never been disclosed to'me In guy form beforo, 1 sald to Mr. Vocke in reply to his unswer to my ucstion, *that s u very fmportant pomat, It fr. Hesing is in fact josvlvent, then I don't sce what you would gatn by enterine up against him. You nught complicate the cotate. In a suit for o preference you might embarrass the Court, because 1t micht wpoear that the judgmient that you would obtain would be a As it scems that you have the rizht y Mr. Hesing's own consent to cuter u judg- went, 1t might ba construed to be a preference uaster the Bankrupt law, cuey exists, awd yon know.it, or had been in- formed of it, you mght ptace the Court in & ~very emnbarrassing position, if I should hereaf- ter be called upon Lo et aside the prelercuce, which you would nu¥ the Court permitte you to ‘make against 11 recurred - to to vo dono {n case Yocke did not enter ment, 1 stated to thew that 1 supposed all Mr, Vocks could do if he didn't enter judgmeut would be to make the most ho could out of the notes and collateral, then raised, I presume, fn reply to my question as to the value of the collaterals, iusfated that hu wi fon natural was worth. then 1lg th tence bim,—that he had friends al work, and would eoon be out." Gen. Stlles—DidITesing make a remark similar to this: that he illc #capegoat for Rehm oft 1 ‘“Not that I remember."” JUDGE BLODGETT, THE HERING INTERVIEW. Judge Blodgett was then called and sworn, Mr. Knott—Judge Bledgett offers hlmself at :fl' 'nwn Instance, i€ fs understood, under the aw Mr. Goudy—Yes, sir. The Judee testified as follows, fn answer to questions by Mr, Goudy: “Btate to the Committee what {nterviews you had with A, C* Heslng in regard to the sale of his notes nnd Atock of the [llinols Staats-Zeitung Company securlog those notes belanging to the Assizace of the Qermania In- ‘surance Company,'* “Adayor two prior to the 7th of Avrll, 1874,—and I fix the 7th of April from the file upon 't Vocke came Teannot fix now by any circumstanca the timy of day, nor do I know or remember which ane of them commenced the conversation; buv 1 soon became Informed of the fact thut Mr. Vocke, as Assignee of the Germanln [nsurance Company, bad the notes of Mr. Hesing for 000 ench, securcd Ly a cortiflcute of he atock of the Staals-Zeituny Company lor $17,000; and also that those notes were friven Lo secure the payment of Mr. chlnz‘nllnfl as a stockholder In that Company,— thuit is, they stock were notes; a stipulation, or by some mieans had a right,— whether it was by “a stipulation or whether he had a power of attorney upon the totes, but in some manner o had the right, iont againgt M. Hesing, and was threatening Mr. Heal tally Insolvent, that Mr. Vocke knew it, that the'eutry of a judement would do_him (Vocke) no good, but ‘might cinbarrass Mr, Hesiog in struggles making finaucial went into his tinanclal conditlon. I personal clahios upon Mr. had niways been Mr. Vocko's friend: thut he Liad aited him when he wus 8 younyr man strugs eling for Iis position_in socicly lere. alluded to his awn eiforts us o publle man jn the clty,~hi had tinished reference to his finuneful cmbarrassiment,—~how e tiad been mtluc:gl fram alllueace to poverty, o T 10 embarrasswents, quite clami sone e any reasons for thinkineg the senience pro- noinced upon him was unjust und excessizel It state what that reason was,"” 1le didn’L give any reason to us, any more ;hnn for sentencing bim for the term of two ears, Mt. Goudy—That was longer than any other man_had been sentenced? hought It was unjust to sen- 9ing) had Leen aclected /s o crowd, in order tolet Jake he papera,—Mr, llestug into my chamber. ity what Mr, called had are (hat Vocke —10 enter ajudg- ny cladmed thut he was to- or efforts which = he extricate himscif from Mr. Hesing 3 lcngm{ statement of He enlarged also upon Vocke, that bo ile also s to recognition. After he what bisturical stateisent In Vocke und said to e you satlstied ot the 1g's fusolveucy’ He re- that ho was not. ‘The mutter had {ndqmnnt 11 the foct of fnsulve ‘fhe conversus ealug. what was udg- A shmllar question was Hesing honelessly insolvent, ‘Tho recurred “ns to whut ghe se- And I asked Mr, Vocke I dow’t know, which, what eltung stock was worlh, recollection would be that 18 mone; hen replied he thought it ought to be worth Tesinie broke fu upon i ot that thne, ays, *1¢ 18 worth just what it 1 worth to s 0 rontrol the man eruent of the poper; some value: to an perhaps, Unfortun- My son la cubarrasscd. a man who doesw’s seek ¥, be mmply bas a be bought Tfrom time arose as to the method of Hestng expressed ureat ‘ocke, thut the must should stage,—Lud vleaded with fu due; suld if Do could ot limselt out of his duanclal embarasiments, [ho snswer mude to thut was that Mr. hud called a tinal mecting for & dividend; thut all the funds which he expected to realize from Vocke ho assets of thu estato lad veon already ob- had of tained with tho o somo collectable assets, wuich he would bave to disposs of; Uit that would bu g forui—he exception of thlay that stule usscts—sooio une iuers didw't expuct Acd the question aroso na 10 the best masuer of disposing of this In arder to mako §y bring the uiost money, 1 hud besy I the babit of ordering the sale of securi- ties 01 this charuzter Ly solleting bids (rom persons who wera in tho lubit o1 deal'ng in thut class of sccuritics, 1t was 8 practica which ad proved much mors gatlefactory than 10 offer connwercal paper or that class of se- curlties for sale st public auction. call ¢t ® private 1 de not sale, but public so far as the persous were concerued who dealt In th cluss of securitics. 6 in that regurd, unid Mr. Hesing, | recole ald that would bo nown notes that wero slaughtered at hall Lthlnk Lutated the the best way; thut Le or 8 quarter of thelr yalue Dby sales al auction, and that Mr, Vocle would do @ great deal better totry und_ negotiats this ussel awung parties who wero In the habit of dealing In that class of sceuritles. of »luw, bul ; Witness then tried to tind a sectlon could not.] ‘Flie substauco of the law is that, where i asset consists of s note or othier myney demand which cannot be cotlected and ruceived by the Assfizues without un unreasopsble or conslderabls delay und ex- pense, the Assigove may sell or dispose of such jsoperty io sudl der. wmanner sa the Lourt sball or- Under the powers delegated to the Court bythis section, the practice, as 1 suld, Bad zrown up of oif+ring accuritics which were deemed Lo have any valus Ly suliciting bids awmoug partics whu were supposed to bs desirous of jurchsing such securities. conversation, which was quite cupclusion weemed to be arrived at that And L thiok ‘ater the (un‘ the Yocke should sirst satisty nimsell whether Heslng was in fact lusolvent or not. 1stuted to bhn again, was an lmportant fact to be determiued, und, when be bad satisficd hlmself upon that, to return and take such orderin the sbould secm proper. N recoliectio view, time the 1eLIlsss ud Now, accondig 10 my withiu u very suort timy alter tbls “interview—L witl say tn re bowever, couversution fereuce to this juter- further, that, duriug the wus olne ou, Mr. Vocke expresscd considersble anxiety lest he lhuula‘ln:l bolders of cepaured by thoother stucks ormauia. whom ho bad com- pelied to pav in full, and I repifed to him., In rubatance, that pefther those men nor the credi. tors can complsin of you if you do your bests il you do all zuu can ninder the circumatances (o secure the in n day or two (as the show) of the 7th of April, Mr. Vocks again cama to my oftice, st my impresaton of that inter- view is that Vocke camo in first, and handed me & been exhibited hers fo attached to my snswer to this charae, In which be sct forth §n autistance that he bad these two notes against Ilesing, secured by the Slaehs- Ze tung atock, that Hesing was fnsolveut, awl asked fnatruction of the Court In the premises a8 to what he anould do. 1t is my recollectlon that while 1 was reading ¢ Mr. lesing and Gen. Leake came In, bad read 1L, or at leagt turned saround to the peraons, I sald, * WellPgentlemen, what_do you propose, or what {8 your policy, Mr. Vacket' Mr, Vocke made some imdetlnite reply,—that ha hsd no policy, to dg, and s An better be sold again becama thie tople of discus- slon, und 1 tiun and said I consd not sea any tetter way of aclling than for Mr, Vucke (o {uvite bids from those who dealt n this class bf securities. don't kememher that the name of a single per- son was sugrested to me, The invitatis tobe madc generally ambng the brokers nul Lnukers, and at some stagoe of the proceedisng: probavly ofter I had definitely settled that I thouzhii that 1t was the Leake duced — At any rate an order was was stated, it wns suppos: views in thut regard, the word, * Enter ' upon it, and delivered it to ?'IIE of them,—which one 1 caunnot tell,—mul he! took place in my chambers, und ny pras ever ulter the five, thun of bankrupts hiad been to ha summary matters o we exll them Inbunkruptey ~—at my chambers, and I was fu the hahit, after detérinining upon any order, to inake a brief :l.t'mumndum upon {t, wned bund It Lo couuset to was but the papers in and_see that 1hey were delivered to the clerk. who, Itouk it for granted, made the proper entrics. matter until Mr. Vocke's report rame In, which, it wouid seemn from the Rle-marks, was on the 10th of Apnil, 1574, when he handed ms a report one morolog,—the usunl morning hour when [ was i foe the hearing of bunkruptey proceed- nge,—the report which has been sct out already fn'this record,—in whichk Mr, Vocke informed the Court of the steps which e had taken to abtain bids. puinted—1 koow L dii—at the bids which wero madge for this asset. thtuk, connented on them openly. mainly from persons that L knew und knew wero engaged In the busincss of buylar amd selling commercial Lunkers of b s integeity, auel os Capt. Scuneider, of the Nattenul Bank of lltnois: Mr, Gage, of the First Natlooul Bank; Mr. Coolbaugh. of the Uaton Natlonal Hanl Greenebaun I knew ver{,wcll asa man engecd very extensivel supposed at the wume, wwl do now, that My, Greenebaam boughe and sold,—that {s, the tirm of Henry Greenebaum & Co., or Greel Bll:nl!. & Co., 1 have forgotten the preclse nume of th fu Ch 1 supposed, 1 Lad knowledge, bought nud sold a very large smount of o wercial paper, report and these letters I minuted upon the re- port an order or rule that all persous interested should show cause by the next ‘Monduy morn- faue, Vocke informed mey elther ut the tirst interview or ou this octasion—or sqne one of the preced- ing Interviews or this occasfon—thst ne had called & creditors’ mecting for a day or two alter the 20th, snd that he was very anxious to rret in a1l the assets nnd make a fionl distribu- tion. 1 preaume that to be the reasou why 1 fixed upun Monday, the %0th, aa the time woeh the rale should be returnable Lo sbow cause why 1he (ireenebaum offer should not be accepte Kither thut evenlug, or withio a day or tw having the natter o mind, und having a fe inzof disappointment that this asset had not recured what 1 cousidered were udequnto offers, Ihad 1t {u my mind to ask Mr. Charles I, Fur- well, who, I belleved, or iad reason to suppose, ras tolerably famitiar with Mr, Hesing's ailairs. somothiog in regard to upon the same train that [ do to bis submrban home, he living at Lake Forest'and 1 at Wauke- ean, and 1 finding him, V. Farwell, it he and bo made was, all sbout I’ from the depot to my Chambers, to the Umon Nutlunal Bank and fonnd Mr. Coolbaunh at his deak. morting salntatlon, I said to him, ¢ Mr, Cool- buuh, the Assignee of ouo of the b aurance companies in my court has Mr, Heslnzx's notes tor $15,000, secured by 17,000 Staals- Ze tuny stock, und fs offered §5,000 for ft. What do you think ot bia accepting itf 1 gnderstamd thnt you sre somewhat conversant with Mr, Heaing's affairs and Z Mr. Coullaugn turned around deliberately in Tils chair so as to face me uud said, *1 suppose that is the same thing which wus offercd e by a clreular the othd -1 suw his name minong the persons who had an. swered such a circular. aware Uit that 1s o very peeuliur plece of paper, In the @irat place, it 1s stalo paper. time overdue. Then Ilesing is hopelessly in- solvent, so Lhat there s 110 personul responsi- bility for the paper. because | have had occaslon to Iuvestizate les- ing's aflalrs, und [ know thiat he is beyond hope so fur as financial complications are concerued, and ho might as well go Into bangraotey to-day as any other thme. ‘Then,’ sal whe sveurity fa concerned, this Staals-Zeltung all thelr earniogs, ‘They can muke heavy ex- penditures for enlargements of thelr busln »0 &4 L0 use up thelr carnings, or thiey cau make wny pretext which 18 in the futerest of the luside porty as ugatust the outside party. Further than sal cecentric latety fn palities, 85 L yonetlnes sceins probable that I into 1he Democratic urganfzation, thy Hevublie- an read largely werutd withdra a corrcsponding Democratic aupport, sald he, Ureeneliauig, contlrming the sale to Greencbaun. oif at the time, und stated that 1 would think est price that this wifl bring. With- file-tnarks on the paver which has and s petitlon or report, eyldence, 1 read the repurt, ael After 1 r Ut he dido’t know what ked (he [nstruction of the Court, the subjcet-matter of how the ecstate. had rred to the precading conversa- best way—ien. Mr, Vockd pro- whicth—un order rotuced, which, it would meet iy I exutafned it, nnd wrote lamduczd. or cannot tell went from my rvom. This conversation Al il ever after fhe w-umu‘fl- husiness hiard Lieen so heory, the Lankruptey matters— ¢ Ity the Clerk's oflice. i} iy room on I grusted to “the Clerl rarely those oceasions, counsel to take I neard nothing muoro of the I thought Mr. Vocke folt disap- Lread the lestersand, 1 'hey were Imper. Beveral of them were from zh standing for Unancelal judgment and DBaird & Bradiey, in the brokerage business, | chaunt n, or of these two firms, Lt one was uml one fa New York,—but that" they After examnining Mr. Voc I recollces only this reason for that: Mr, this offer. Ho travels looked for hin upon the train, Not I asked his brother, whom [ found on the triin, knew snything about Hesing Staats-Zeltung ~ stock. ‘The —snewer *UJo to Coolbaugh, He knows ‘The neXL MOrMNE, ON my way 1 srepoed ni- After the ordinary aukrupt in- Staats-Zeitung aflairs. day.’ I reaponded that Said bie, * You must be 1t ta o long I know that,! said he, he, ' 08 fur us Compuny at the time of the great fire was all burnedup. It hod notbing left but {isgood-will thut 1 kpow of. ‘They bave since that timebuilt on extensive bullaing which 1s heavily miort- traged, they have bought expensive inaterinl for thelr printing und publishing departinent, I‘uuvmuh they must be earrylng a large tloating debt. Then, said heg *is 3 a0 close vorbura- tion, It 18 fu thu power of the fuside partics 1o Irveze oug unyoutsiders whom they don't wish to tuvor, ‘They can fix salaries so ns 1o absort 4 d he, *Mr, liestig has been somewhat undd §f he suould, 1, KO hia wof thy Staats-Zetung will withdraw hould he take his puper Into the Dem- ¢ organization the Republican readers will wd 1t §s doubt (ul whether be can get Now,* in view of sll these tulngs, this nol belug commercial paper o the wenso thal wo banicers sl brokiers use It, I 1 was In the pluco of your Asslutiee I shoutd think 1 took as much reaponsibility fu rufusiug the viler of £5,000 should In wecepting it.! du[u'l. remenber now that anything fusther was sald, us o 1 thankied htm, and I ‘Fhen | oroceeded my room, nml on Monday moralug, when the ruly'was recirnable, Mr. Vocke cume Iuto iny chambers duriug the mutning hour, sud stated that no objection had beeu filed to the rouficmution of the salo to ud banded nie, I think, an order 1 put bin further of ft, and act durive the duy, At ugon 1 puton my bat und stepped over to the Na- tlonal Bank of Ilinots and stked Capt, Schuelder, who had ouce buen a proprictor of thu Ntuuls- Zeitunygy winl Lthought ho was {amillar with the businesa affuics of the Company—1 nsked him 11 he kuew anythine wbout the vilus of Sudls Zeltung stock, aud o shook hishead and sald * No,* or lutimated It. *Well,? safd 1, *do you kuow whut wonld bo tho vafus of Hesluz's nole se- cured by Stauts-Zeitung stock 1" * Well,? said e, “Mr, Hesing 13 a very peculise man, und this s a very pecullar sltugtion, and 1 don't know that Lcawtell you,! T didw't coustder It my duty to press hlin Turther, uud returned to iny chambers, and some tme during the course of thu alter- woon ! direzted the entry of the order, perhaps n‘m‘n:r Yocke came in, perbiaps belure be camo . 41 What were Mr. Coolbaugh’s politics1 asked Mr, Goudy. + My, Coolbsugh [ always undorstood to bo a Democrat.” o ““Did tiesing In any Ioterview with you with rugard to thid mutter stato Lo you what the divie dends on thls stock had beeut™ #Never, sir. No statosut was made {u re- gard to the amount of dividends whic thestock lad vald, vor {n regurd to the amouot of the Ttuck Iv:xlcn Was oXlaut or to what issue 1t be- e ““1id e make any statoment that tho stock was worth pur or uv ard” M No, sir. Ou the coutrary, his sole statement was that be wight as wllu frankly—{ think that is the language be used wheo he vreswd the thing on Mr. Vocke—that {ta chlef or wain value wus the coutrol It guve Lo the paper,—ihat he insiders did gssentlally cootrul wll the easu- fugs so thut outsiders would stuud but little chanve,’” “Vhea did you first learn that Heslog’s asscts of the Germania?? Vocke, Jiesinz, and mrsell," . Vockeand Heslog were present, dia you have I“Y’S’,’""-‘""-‘J“ with Mr. Heslng on the eub- ect. . Heninz—ihat ho sought an apnointment in your private chamber, that you made an appoint mient with him, that he went thers awd had a vonverzation with you, fo which there was sorae nnderstanding reached (hat you were to fayor bim in lic ssis of this assetof ihe Uermunia. Is hnt statement truef" have any pricate interview witn Hesing i regard to the notes or stock " & ek directly, the noies or the stook for less than thelr values' proceedings? there siould be any, most ardent wial 11t 1 he to bring their full value. bo distressed by the dea that the othe holiders would Liame him. Mr. Hesingseemed to bhe desirous of shielding Mr. Vocke fromany blame In-that regurd, and the only strugele that seemed to be going on between thiem was whether Mr. Vocke shotld enter up a judgment agalnst Mr, Heniug or nut. to think that he ought to do su, and Mr, Heslng Vucke no gaod.” afternvon, and I wlil give [t"to them.! Jury had voted an ayealnst Mr. 41ibbard, und that [ had fostrucce: ten, secured by that stock, wers ong the *YAL the time of this nm.' Interview between “Prior to thal Interview, at which both Mr. *Not one word." " You have heard the teatimony given by Mr. o1 say unquallfedly It {8 untrue,” * Did you ever, at “any tima or In any plare, ¥ No, s'r, [ ucver did,? * 13id youin any forin, either directly or fn. denvor to aid [lesing in the aule of ST akid not," DIl von know of any secrecy touching the **I knew of no secrecy—kneir no reason why Mr. e ed (he Mr. Varke secined to atock- Mr., Vocke seemcd sented (hnt & judgment would do Mr. Did yun know of any purpose on the part. of (ll:'z fo have this stock purchased in for bim- 11 not." . ** At the tima of the confirmallon or sccent- anco of Greenclanm's bid une making the rule absolnte, did you know at that time that Hestog bad any iuterest In the purchase !’ “1 did not,? THE HIBBARD CASE. “Touching another subject, I will ask you whatlier, while the Grand Jury, Impancled last October In the District Court, preasided over by you, were fo session, you did or satd aoything to prevent an {nvestigation ot the Reglster's oflcol " “1did nothing witha view to prevent, or which was iutended In any way to suppress or prevent, the fullest fuvestigation foto theaf- 1airs of any Reglster's ofice.” *‘Had you any objection to a full fovestiga- tlon being made by the Graod Jury1” “None whatever; but, on the contrary, was desirous u full {nvestiXation shiould be made."” *Wlien did you first learn that there was sny proposition on the part of the jury to indict Mr. Hibbard for perjury?® “1had known ol it the day that the Grand Jury udjourned, which, 1 think, was Friday, the 224 day of November."” " ‘'rom whom did you learn It then?? [ learned it from the District-Attorney. I was at that time holding Circuit Court for the trial of jury cascs. the forcnoon of thedav, and had been fnformed, pernaps the day would b rendy to sdjourn that day. \When the noon recess wus taken, 1 came from the court- ruom into the hall to pass Into iy chamber, and met the District-Attorney in the hall, nsked me [ he could sce'me o momcnt, and I fnvited him bad passed fn ho maid to (irand for perjury agafnst Mr. Ilibbard, and I have great dotbts whether 1t will lo against bim, I thourht I would come und submit the question o you. und he opened tho Statute,—I think the 8tatutes at Large— for the sesston of 1674, and turned to the act sincorator proved June 22, " tion f in his hand a paper which purported to bea certificd copy of & report made by Mr. Hibbard as Reglster under the nincteenth ‘section of this amendatory nct, churged to have been commmitted {u vot includ- ing in that report of fees which hie had recetved «]lunnx the year mentfoned fn that report rom 1o him fn previous years,—durine the yeara be~ foro the one which that report purported to represent, distinctly In” that form, I sald to bim, *Why, Judge Bange, that report ifus mado under s constyuction which [ yave Lo the law for the beuelit of the Registers, heforo the were made, I presume.! He then 1ihought there was room for doubt at least as to whether Hibbard wasn't right in hls con- struction of the haw.! wome of the reasons which had led mo to con- strue the having I had a jury trial on during before, that the Grand Jury He into my chainber. After he me, *The dury have voted an indictment Lsald, *What 18 tho point, Judgel’ of the Bankrupt law, ap- 1874, and called iny atten- to the nineicenth section. le had Ilo stated thut perjurv was cases ~ which had been referred As soon as be bud stated the polat Teporta , * Well, 1 called his attentlon to the 1w as had, stated to him fact that I rocollected distinctly made . this covstruction to Mr. Hibbard, nid then sald to him, * But, Judgo Bangs, whother 1 was right or wrong in my con- structi be fndicted for porjury. ly no perjury was committea anyhow; if I was wrong, then the corrupt intent (8 a1l taken from the uct beesuse he ucted under the instructions of his supurior oftleer, who bad the right to con- strue the luw for on of the law, Mr. Hibbard ought oot to 101 was right, certaln- him.' Ila remarked that he was autto inclined to courur with me tn the con- struction of the law, und I sald te bim, *You telt the trand Jury that this was done under my direction or construction Uint i they want any furthy d say to them information upon the law of the matter, to come into Confi this o re. tired trom my roow, uud shortly afterwarde Judge Drammond came n, and “wo went to lunci togethier tn the adjolning room, where our Iunch 1s spread at noun. Durine the meal T mentioned to Judge Drusnmund that the Grand indictment for perjur) the District-Attorney to bring them {oto Court for an jostruction if 1hey did not avrea with the District-Attarnoy upon the law of ile case; und 1 said to Judze Drummond, *Wou't you, after lunch, cotne 1to my roow und let ma explain .the polut to vou ' Wa walked Lito my roumn to- gether; 1he Btatute lay oven whero the Districi-Attorney had left ity and 1 culled his attentlon to the differ- cnt clauses in this nineteenth section, and sxid to Judzgo Drummand thist upon consideration of these clauses, fn connection with the forin of repurt whieh 1he Buprerae Court Lad prescribed 10 bo uscd by the Recister under that section, [ thought there could be no doubt but what the law unly reguired the Registee to report the fecs which ho hud recelved daring the year from the casus reforred to him during e year, Judge Drumniond, after examiuiyge the various cluuses avine thue, sald to we, oll, Judge, there (svizreat forco fu what you ssy,’ or words o that effect; und I think wo scpurated, per- haps,at thut time, 1 returocd to thecourt-rosn anid resumned iny seat upon the Bonceh, nad the trial of the cuse on hiaud during the forenvon.' o) will usk you tp state whutlier, as that {n- terview, ur uol Judge Drununond ¢xpressed to you any upinion about the right to tiod an fo- dictmentt " wYps, sir, After wohad discussod tho Iaw, and alter Judge Drumwmond had wade the re- Mark Uit there Wus grest foree in wy construe- tion, bie sald, *But whethier you are right or wrong, it would bu & great wrong to Hibbard to fodics hun for perjury when o was acting uuder your construction of the Jaw.' | thiuk bis fanzuagoe was it empiatle upoo the subject. ‘Lhen, ws [ have subd, L rosuuied iy dutles upon the Bench for the witeruoun, sid at e usual hour adjuarned, ‘Phe tirand Jury did not cotme down dor nstructions during the sftor- noon, @8 1 expected they woulds und when [ came out of the court- roont, Judzo Dramuond had becu so emphatic In bis concurronco with me as 10 the inipropries ty of_uding o fodictimeat nt'nlnn. Hibbard un- d’rr the circtitustunces which 1 had detoited, st 1felt that there was some respousibtlity upon o in the premises, [ accordinuly spoks to the Thatlitf ol the Court, who wan passtug vut, por- liaps, with me, und safd, * Won’t you step loto Judgs Bangs' room'—which as on the floor _ below me—=tand sy to 1 that 1 wunt to sec hin?’ 1 theu walked into my chamber, atd lefs the door opent. A few momeats aiterwards Judae Baugs came bn, und 1 said to bim, ¢ Fhe Graud Jury did wot eome down during e, mfter- noon, and suppose, therefory, that perjury mistter ds st an end [ licsitaied 2 moigent, und suid, *Well, no? Suudl, ‘DI you 1el the Graud Jury what [ sald to you B;0u the subjecttt Bald he, * No, Ehavenot sut.’ L turned to bhu wnd eald, tJudge Bangs, 1 think you oughbt to tell thew, sud Jou ouizut 10 2y 1o them that the matter was broughit to my kuowledye, or, rather, that the constroction of this Juw wus brought to my attention before these reporrs were made, sud that Mr. Hibbard scted uuder mydisection und say to the tiraud Jury Jruin e that LI they bave sy doubts about the subject 1 will be very happy to have them comd in und be fn- furimed from the Bunch a8 to the whole mat- tert 1 further sad, 10 thut very samo cunnec- ‘Siuco you were In biere st nuon I bavo talked with Judge Drummond ‘sbout it, and he agrees with me thuil it would ba a great wrong to find sn judictent for per- jury under the circumnsiances.' Said I, *An tndictment fur takiog ilicgal fees, o course, 18 a tritliug matter ; but au indlctment for perjur; s & serfous watter, ubd ouglit BOL to be fuul unless there s good peuson, whea wll the facts tol! 1ng th belng awl anawered, mau who bad been discharsed. i€ their yoting was all through, and he said it was; if they bad nny witnesses fo examine, and ho 2aid they had nonie,—ull thev had to do was through, pluined t {more under the law, understood and lald hefore the Jury, the Information in the possesaion of cuting offlcer will uestion when we get wonlil should persist fa findlng an indictiment after the Court bad told them iliat they vutht not to | it might ne the duty of the Dls- trict-Attorney Lo withhold L.~ 1, liowaver, will aettle that when the ques! i that was all that I said, so tion aris far as I recollect.” and e pri ustily it.' .lnnurlnnm then said tome, *This Graua Jury have got consfderable feeling on the subjecty and sup- posa they stiould persist tn finding an fadict ment affer thcy come Into court!! said I, ¢ Judge Bangs, settle that my L \el),! 1t will be time enough o ity but be that If 'they 4 thiok “ Did the (irand Jury come into court{" “They did * Did'any of view with youi" ,u:e Grand Jury seek an inter- 1 touk my scat at my. d:nk‘ and eommenced writinz a_ lctter. think, In the wmorning, over night In the city, 1o o ~|ur{ might be disciiarged that night. me that he could not ges 1he fodictments readys until sotne thne in the evenlog.” I had told that 1 would remain rder thut the Grand Judge Bones, £ He had Va8 thut. vour suggestivn, or his request from the jurys’* +1 think lie informed ma that the jury were In the evening. writing n letter, emploved hall of thre twenty-one. to wait ou the District-Attorney. *1 think we should have got throngh we had known what he sahd; soouer | ready,—were through,—~und thai Lie was delay- iy 07 thut thy indictinents wera not ready, anil would not he _reudy untll somne time I resumed my ecat at the desk, or took my Acat at my desk, and commenced 1should say that § bad been wquarters of an bour in 1hat way, when Mr, Keith, one of the Graml Jurors, came into my chomber and atated that the Granid Jury were pragtically through with thelr business, except to return thelr ments into court, that he had an fmportant, husiness appo(ntment for that evening, be understowd the | indlet- und that ctments would oot be ready till 7 or 8 o'clock; and asked i he must come buck to the evening sesston, how mauy jurors thers would be Mwithuut bim, nud he ooswered that they would ail be there but himself, which I think “would make ‘I'iere was one Grund Juror who had Leen discharged & fow days before on ac- kuess {n the family, and. Mr. Keith v, it would leave twenty-one. beljeve, they were all there but the I asked him lie I asked him After that our view of the law was on this Hibbard busfuess before,’ Ithen turned to him and sald: *Well, Mr. Kelth, it waa very rasy fur you to have found out at an_earlier day If you had wished;! and asld It *Iwill explain to you nuw,as I sup- fmu you are somewhat curious to kuow sbout t, perbaps, more fully than what the Dis. trict-Attorney may have explained 1o you, the the Tlaw.! Inined the differcat clauses of ad Jed me to the conclusion that view [ took of statuta and ex, the law which I opened the the Reglster was not ubliged to report, in his anoual report for any vear, the fecs received tn certain cas He thaok thought, were hnil soma feeling. ‘Weil referred to lim in previous years. .me, and_seid that the jury, tisficd, althongh some of them 1 went Lo supper at the ho- tel, and returned to my chambers somewhery about 7 o’clock, und some time along between 7 and 0 o'clock Dr. Hamlin came into my room and asked me, or sald, ‘I would like to know somewhat tnore fully your views about this question we hiad up in” Hibbard's case,” T took the atatute again, amnd explained the matter to Dr. Hamline: and ha remarked, after he was Judge, 1am glad you have ex- 1f wwe hed known this we could have m through two wecks before.” That was all tliat was said. The Grand Jury came In some- where botween 8 and 9 o'clock, und returoed from four to five tndictments, und were dis- charged, I nad it fo my mind at first to go to an explanation of this' perjury mutter to the Grand Jury ot that tlme, but did not think it necessary {0 do ro, 18 the Graud Jury did not ask sny instructions from tne, and had stated that they were through with their hustiess, and liad no more business before them.' “Did you have anv information, after you vious years, mitted to me.” mada a fulse vath,for 1earned of the purpose $o fndict for perjury,that there waa any charge sgainst Hibbard of having ie reason thut o had not reported alt the fees recelved by him during the current yrar upon caaes referrsd to him duriog that yeari" “Idonnt, The sole quertion presented to me was whether he was oblized to Include fn his report the fees which he had recelved trom vases commenced or referred to hin duriug pre- “That wus the sole question sub- “Bome_testimony has been given In your hearlog about remarks made by you to twa dif- ferent Grand Jurors sbout the brotracted wes- slon. You may state to the Commitiee what you knew, und what the dificuliy was about the Jury remalnlog fn sesslon,—whé:her it was un- ustial, nnd what your kuowludge was on the subjecti” ““Sume time, perhaps in_the Intter part of September, two or three weeks before the jury were summoned, the District Attorner notified mo that be wanted the Grand Jury summoned as early in October ns T could do 8, saying that bo had what he called this Custowi-House case before bim, and wanted to present it to the Grand Jury, and some persons {u the Jall thut he wished to try for small intractions of the revenue. 1 discussed with hiin the tine when it would be most conveuient for him to have the Urand Jury sumnmuooed, anid 0xed upon the 10th of October, und ordereld o venlre for timt time. 1 had no kuowledze that suy matters were comn- ine before the Grand Jury of snecial interest, or public futerest, except this Custom-EHouse In- vestigation. From what the District-Attorney informed me then, nud whut he told me ut other times, I supposed thut wasan un}runuut matter, and should, for the benetis of al apeedily lnv tizated.” Whiat was the situation of the funds or p- 1 concernad, be propristions for the paymeot of ihe Grand Jur{l" «WVith & single exception sinco { have been upon the Benck, und that was during tho time thut the whisky-ring {nvestizations were under conalderation in the winter of 18756, 1 had never bad & OGrand Jurv in session over two weeks; and, lately, we have heard conslderable critfelam from Washiugton In rezard to the jury expenses of our Courta, ‘The Marshal informed 1 some timo during the fall that onc of the Asststants from the Department of Justive, in the Attorney-Ceneral's ollice, was here, and lnd asked Il we coitld nut get alonz without In view of thiat fact, | be- less jury cxpenses. catno somewbat disturbed ut the protracted sus- slous of this Grand Jury, und [ spoke to several of the jurors, 1s | met them o the hail, nhout the time thut \ley were vxiz:ndlul. and urged dispateh in thel . 1 spoke duty, uud was, ke, a fow * Was yours(* vestiguting, for there woul ¢ He never was." #'What connection, i sny, did Homer Cook have withths Germania baokruptey proceedings {u your Court " [ yhiuk lic was one of the attorueys for tho petitfonini creditors, und put the Company luto Lasukrupicy.'? t wus an lnvoluotary proceeding I L Wos o fnvoluntary procecding, the Combany wss adjudged bankrupt. und In the foterval between the wdjudication aud the election of an Assiznec, Mr, Cuok, under the ir buslness, to Judge Drummond about it, wimit, voushderably disturbed, not at the subjects which the Graml Jurv wero tu- 1 cared nothing about thuso, hat {n rezard to the thne which Wiey sevmed to 1 dit not know that there were wiatters cowlog befura them, or 1o be presented tathem, which would require so much Ltima, feoling that thers wus not the regiifaile sinouut of diapatehs thut these was u deluy somewnere, which was unnecossary, thero was any charge “ugalust Mr. 1libbard fur fnlse swearing ur perjury, 1 bad known through the uewspapers thut the Grand Jury werd fuves- teating churges szalust Mr ivbard for having taken ublawiul fees, il was entiroly willing that it lovestization shunid o oo, vosed that {t would take but a very fuw honrs (o present thut whole cass to 10e Graud Jury; that 4 be bubt very litle to fty that vould ralas the question, aud the District-Attarney could druw the fudictuicnts within a very short time. 1did notsue, from what £ had Leard of the discussion on that subject, usy oceasion for much delsy upon that matter, but that & very brie! axumination would enuble tie Grand Jury to determine whether they would or would not find sn indictment.? Huriow P, Smith ever a partner of I had wever heard that tett fv o Loy I hud o 1 wuyie bu prosented to After order of the Court, was dirocted to luok after certain litleation which was veudiug i suine ol the Brato Courts against 1ne Compuny, 0 pre- ng wade.' “That’ was before thu electlon of the As- veut Judguicuts bel -lx{nwl" Before tho election of an Assiguee. Therd was sumathiog uver two mouths futervened be- tween the adjudication awd the clectivn.” “DId you coutirin Mr, Vacku 0 Asslzuce through'auy luflucnce uf M. [lcslu’sl » Hetwecn the tlme of the sajudivation and the tine of the election I tuivk | bave u recol- Jaction thut Mr. Heslog spoke to me abou voral| candidates poken 1 Vocke. Haster Asavssor, Interval There wers se of for tbls Assl; others; uud sover: to me upon the subjuct. may bave done susi at that 1 bavo Moveuue, e il friends of Mr. Vocke spoke M. Hestug, 1 think, kiiow r. Kaster did, time fosgutien T Sir, Mr, Vocke atooni Alr. was Collector or whlea, of bhad biv oflice n tho same buliding with the oue occupled by the Court} wnd ou sowe oecusion eltbier L weut fato Lis ottice, ur be cam luto mine, und this mutter of Vocke's becowlug Adlzuco was wentivaed. My reentiection shout M Hering’s having 1 any agency In the matter I8 very dim and indis. tirict, but he mag liave called upon me, nnd it 18 pussible and prabable that ho did, Mr, Harlow I’ Sin1th had, I think, from about 1850 ta 1878 or 1859, resided (i the same tonn where I did,— in Waukegan, We had never been partne we hwl heen lawyers practicing at the aame Bar, nnd triends; but (n 1853 or 180 Mr. Smith came o this city, und myreiations with him from that time forward had not been Intinate. My im- ression fa that lie was apoken of by roma one a candidate for Asasiznee, anil would be a can- dtidate befure the erediturs’ meeting, and I may have mentfoned that to whoever spoke to s about Mr, Vocke.” “1o you remcmber the fact that you had an Interview with Mr. Keith nnd Mr. Earle, ass committee from the Grand Juryl” 2 e, " “1hat wasan {nterview in addition to those you have mentioned " ** Yes: thutwas # davor two befora the Grand Jury adjourned. Those gentlemen aimply called toassur€ine that they had not scot for an lawyers as witnessss. Perhaps it is due to all parties that 1 shouid explain. An attorney met me one dav as I was coming out of the court~ room, awd he sald, * You have a curlous Grasd Jury up-stairs, They are sending for attorueys ax8 witnesses: Judge Trumbnll has just cowme dowa from testfving.’ Right at the tune this information was imparted to me, I raw Mr. Crovw fo the hall, I called to nim, uud sald, * T understand you sre calling attorneys before your Grand Jury to give testimony In regard to the law.’ ile said something I conatrued—I cannat give his languaze—into au adwission of that statement, uud [ said, * That 1s very fin- proper, Mr. Crow, ‘The Grand Jury should not lsten to testimony which conld mot heard befure & traverse jurv. You stiould take your law from the District-Attor- ney or the Cours, und not send otit for lawyers. You will get voursclves {nto an Inextricable for 10 you do, am{ you had better state to the Grand Juiry what [ eay on the subject.’ 1 had known Mr. Crow tor a good _many years, und felt Iree to talk to him, nud koew he would carry wny meseage to the jury.” THE CROSS~EXAMINATION. Witnoss was then cross-cxamined by Gen. Stiles: tYou bave stated that Judge Bangs sug- gested to you the propriety of calliog a Grand Jury early {n October, for the purjose of con- sldering what were catled the Custom-iouse cases, and cases of minor importance. Do yout remember whether,'tn your charge to the Grand Jury, you called their attention to any particu- lar class of cases?" 5 “No, sir; I told them the District-Attoroey would present the busiess to them.” “ DId you learn afterwards whether the at- tention of the Grand Jury had been called to the Custom-{Touse cases by the District Attor- ney, or whether they had of their awn motlon set 1o work Investigating the mattori™ “1 did not." “ You bave spolkicn about a conversation which you had with Judge Drummond at the lunch- table, which was continued In yourprivate room, do you rememnber whether any one else was present at the lunch-table at that timel" ) don't think there was. My recollection is thut Judge Drummond and T took luuch alone that day. I kuow Mr. Hibbard wns not there, and my 1mpression is Mr. Bradley was not." ¥ Who were there usually at you junches]"’ “The Marshal, Mr. Bradley, the clerk, Mr, Hibbard, Judgze Drummond, and mynelf," “That was in the Government building " “Yos, sir.” 4 YWhen did you first learn that the Grand Jury had under conslderation matters connected with Rexrister ibbard{" I should think Llcarned it at & somewhat ‘r’nrly"mgo fo the proceculugs of the Grand ury, b -‘-‘)Do you remember from whom you learned “ 1 think 1 learned it from Judge Bangs."” 4 Do you remember whether snything was gsid to you by Mr. Hibbard In relation to the matter " * § know vothing was ever sald to e by Mr. IEibbard," # Du you recollect how Judge® Bangs came to speak of L1" 1 think [ srked him how bo was cetting along with bis Grand Jury, nud he eaid they fiad taken up the matter of charges against Hiohard.' » Do you remember the first time that Hib- Dard talked with you as to the nruper construc- tlon of the law in relation to wakiog bils re- -turns ss Reister{” “ Not defiuiteiy. I recollect there were iwo conversatfons, in two different years, wikl my fmpression was the Orst was in 1875 and the second in 18761 + Mr. Diradley testified the other day that Mr, Tlitbard presented to him——"" »Allow s to ssy rlent hiere, Gen. Stiles, | deduce my couclusfon rather, that_these two conversations were reapectively in 1875 and 187, trom the fact that the iirst report war due under the law of 1874 In July, 185, and the secoud report would be due in July, 1870.” Ar. Bradley testified the other day, in sub- hat flibbard cume to him and " sugresi- a vertain coustruction of that law with which udley didn't acree, but stated to Mr, Iib- hard that ho thonght the safest plan was to re- port all his fecs, and thut Hibbard then responded thut dudire Blodeett agreed with him (11ibburd) {n his (Hibbard’s) conscruction of the law, Now, do vou remember, Judge Blod- gett, when Hibband tiest asked your vplnlon,— shethier he uaked it wittout suggesting bis own flrst, or whether he gave you lis own verslon of the law aud nsked your copeurrence theretof" ] aliould say that lie asked without ving his own,—simiply presented the question' + flave you any distinet recolleetion upou that olnt (" “ithe only Impreasion 1 have upon that aub- Ject 18 that he uskipd my view without sujggest- ugz what is wieht be ou the subjeet.” And your o“unlon so glyen to mr. Hibbard lembrul-e«ill ¢ single question whether or not Mr. 11iobard, In his reports, was required to re- turn e fecs received or earned by him in cases aiilel hud been commenced lhu‘war previous tu the yeur cinbraced in s ropore{ " WO b, 1 think there were sume other ques- tlons,~—thie queations luw ha shonld fix the rutlo of dividends, or percentiwre of dividends—" “ As to that L mady no nguiry. It lLus not Deen brought out. 1 1 understood you, whrn you prusented your views to Judve Dt ond, atter histening, Judze Dounnionk g | Thiuk there is great furce i what you say.! Didt Judge Drutimond go beyond that * [ think not, siry not concurring with me {n tho coustruction of the law.” DI you, at the time, kuow what that Indjct- wment whilch the Graml J’ury proposed o roturos wieatnat Hibbard covered?” ++ Qnty from what the District-Attorney told " e, v 'Phen, It 1 understood you, the inference which you drew from what the Distriel-Attor- tey sapd was that the teand Jury inteaded to jndict Hivtard for perjury in tus “stalctuent In regard 1o tho fees recelved 1rom ases cotu- 1eneed previous o the year embraced by Lid vor (" “'Pliat he falled to_includa in his aonual re- port of ull current business for the particlur yeur 1o question the fess which o had recerved irotn casos which bud beeu reterred to b previots years.' “'Naw, 't it ufact {hat the (ndlctment drawn by tnie (irsnd Jury dovst’t embruce thut cluss ol cases?" sinever waw the fndictrmeut drawn by the Grand Jury.” 1 l'l-"kuowl but you might bave read §t1" “Na, W11 it 3eliould turd out thut the indictment that the Grand Jury desired Judie Buugs tn signand o present to the Court didu's cover any caavs excepl such us bad been comimencud beiore Liboard duriue the year covered by lils reporl,—iu that case the'views that you gave Hibvard l‘ol'lhl uot be applicablel ? N, s »8a that, if the Grand Jury had retumed that_indictent 10to court, i would not bave conflicted with your understanding of the Juw " + Nu, #ir, o Turther tuan this: 1wt it it liave subsed thls qus 5100 Us Lo whether the lee were tarned,—whether uig whole deposit was carned auriig the ifl" ornot, That fs one of itio questious tsut bad beeu preacuted Lo nu by Mr. shlubard. Waal wus your advice to Hibbard on that polutd 1 adviged him that be was ouly obliged to return so inuch of the deposit os was carncd.' + What construction did you give to the word ¢ recerved,'—:he Junuage, i ) recollect rizlit, 43, recelved ur earned 4 “Yes, 1thought thut the word *esrncd’ was the controlliug word,” 4 You dulu’s attuch inuch fmportsoce to the word ‘recelved 1" b o, e, L thought *earncd? determised fees the Begliter was eutitled to.” ** Wero you, durfuie the progress of thel quiry loto Register Mibbard’s ullatrs by a Cou wittee of the Bar Assuclation, fatolllar with what wus dune! “No, sir. 1refralued from soy sttempt to ascertaly the proceedings of the Comunittes further than to werely learu thut the char; was that Mr. 1libbard had recetved Hlegal tevs. [ supposed that, ju sowe form, the question would vome befors me tor adjudication, and I didu't cure 10 heur the particulsrs upon cither wido uutid it cume up, oud purpussly refralucd from reading w the report. 4 That was the chel reasoni” ““Thie reason was that I dido't deem It proper that [ should takos part ln s discussion until It came befora me judicially. I sapposed it would, It was stated quite—I recoliect quite——onapicuously in a Sunday morning paper which 1 happeued to see, that very large sums of money had been improperly taken by Mr. Hibbard. [asked some questions of sume of the members of the Bar, kuowing that there was a controversy—"' “ Do you remémber who they wera}" “40ne of them, I think, was Judge Lawrence, - and another, i I recollect right, was Mr. Stephen A, Goodwia. 'The who attended the meeting of tion, 1 should think Mr, Edwin Walker was annther.” “Did Mr, Goodwin say he was presont at the Bar Assaciation, at the fiibbard Inquiry 1" “ 1 don't know that he sald he was’ present. e said that he belleved,—I think the substavcs of his statement was,—I may lhave got these gentlemen confused In refereuce to this matter; but it was stated by several attorneys that they thoupght that 3Mr. Hitbard had the right to rmake thess charges und=r the law. My impreseion now, when 1 think about it further, s, that Mr, Aysr wasone that I beard express it. It was ® casugl conyersation fn my chainbers in the morning. ahortly after the meeting of the Bat Association," “During this couversation or others had with other members of the Bar, was nu'znlmg said about the necessity or progd::‘{ of the Bar Association exouerating Mr. Hibbardi" vell, nir, I recollect saylng that I thought that Mr. Hibbard's fricnds bad beea s little im- tomle.—um it was stated to me that Col. Souper would haye beeu entirely content with the actlon of the Bar Assnclation upon his re. port {f ¢ had not also tudorsed Flibbara, and I didu't lbnua sca the neersity for indorsing Mr. and said o, I think, to sume of them,' mstter which you supposed might be brought hefure you, and which led you to avold discusston on the subject, was tliut Iilbbard might be brought fnto ¥uur court upon a charge of taking illezal feesl” ©Certainly. I supposed that any creditor or Assignee, or any person intcrested lo a bank- ruptcy estate, would havae the right to call up the question of his taxation of costs in any case where these alleged ttemns would sopear, and bave them re-taxed or have an adjudication by the Court as to whether they were or were not. legal fees,” x “ During this period, after the lnvestigation by the Bar Associutlon Committee of Hibuard's alfairs, up to and during the time the Graod Jury was iu sesston, you were In frequentcon- tact with Hibbard, were you not!" “Q) yes, sir.” seMet hitn frequently afterwards, socially ™ 4 Ycs, sir.’” *You met bim at luuch-tablet” Q) yes, every day.’! » flow did you avold reference to this matter, which must have Interested Hibbard very greatiyl? 1 think his own sensa of propricty led him to avod 1" * And Quring the thne of the session of the Graud Jury there swere no conversations bes tween sourself and 1libbard 1u selation to the matter!? “ None whatever.” . “#Du jou know whether therd was between Hivbard aud Judee Baogs? T do uot know.” wera geotlemen TIHFE, STAATS-ZEITUNG STOCK. “Upon this matter of the saic of the Staats- Zeltung stock: 1f I remember, you state that ening aud Vocke came to your chambers, and Hesing, us well as Vocke, expressed the des that the notes should bring all they were wortnl" * Mesing expressed that, and Vocke too.! “Did you think those cxpressions on the part of Hesing were genuine ™ ! “1did. [ saw no reason why he shonld have any other belief.” “DId 1t nut oceur to you that the meanlog of Mering was to get his notea for as little as he coutd get them fort" #1¢ did not.” i 1t eenr to you that Iesing was there for the purpose of eetting thnt stock tuder his own control at a8 Tow a figure as possible!™ s 1 did not.”? # Now, Mr. Vocke sald {n the course of that vonversation, a8 you remember it, when nsked wha the thought was the value of the Stuats- Ze tung stack, that be thought it ought to be worth part'* W think he dld, sir # Aud Vocke s also stated here to the Com- mittee that he at that time sald 1hut he himaeif was the owner of sume of that stock, und gavs the smount of the dividends that he had re- celved thereon. In thut according to your ree- ullectiont ™ #1 have no_recollection that he rave the amount of dividends to bim, and [ don’s think hie hias stated it to the Committee.” wierbaps [ may be mistaken. I T am it will coerect itself. Do you know of Vocke retract- fngg the statemeot that hie thought the stuck wus worth parl? # No, sir, 1 do not know that ho ever express- 1y tuok back that statement.”” DIl he ever, 50 lar as you remember, cive finy reasons for anv differcut oplnlon s tu the »nfue of the stock ™ - w J{e did way this, when he bronght o his re- port, that he found, when he came to fecl of the market, that ft was an eatirely dilferent thing to sell from what he bad supposed it would be." W Your sugiestion Was that he visit persons deallng l that class of securities, und thut was the order{® + Y'us, siry the express nraer,™ “hul he visit uu{ cansiderable number of persond who deal fu thut class of seeurities “l 'thm'l know how esteosively he visited them* w1 mean os judced Ly the avswers tohls solicitatlions for bids " «1 think the report states that bo sent ont circulars, und roceived answers from the follow- 1 fnfer that he xent out clreulars 1o others, eapatize ol thoso wers attuched wered. tict tles 1ead from Vocke's report, In which it wan solid, *'In arcordancs with the order of the Court, he had clreulated | ® bumber of bapkers and capizalista lefters coneermng the notes and seenrity, ntd received from eeveral stutements regarding their opinlon of the value of the stock uid cuntaining bids for the same, while retused to make bids, und stated in thelr reasons theretor. Allthe answers re 4w Amony those who suswered," sald witness, wiwere Ueorze Bchuefder aud W, L. Cool- baneh." At the tima you visited Mr. Coolbaugh, did you read his letfer, In which fo savs, wmony other thiugs, *But my opinloa 18 that §0 yod ca sell then 850 cents on the dotlsr, under i eirenmstaucss, the sale would be s goud and Juitivious une 1 ] hod rewd thut letter,” . silad yqu read the lutter of Schneider, fn whicl no'says, smang ollr thngs. <1 Teel satisticd that 1he notes 1o question, coustdering the present embureassment of Heaing, the sume bewg past du, bave 1o special wusket value, With the vatue ot the collaterals 1 sm nut ao- quatint nd decling to purchave ! s Oh, yes; [ read all thuse lettera” S W1t 8 luck known to jui at tis tine that Dankers did not generally deat In overdue paper —nstule paper, as they cailint? w1 Koew, of course, that business-uca wouldn't buy overdue puper, und b wouldn't tetch us wudh 03 uew paper ot vet matured.” wPhiess notes of lealug were due four years, Could it be reasonably expected thutany bunker would be witling to purchass st klud of pupert” s Well, whether ft could be reasonably ex. pected of Bot, iy dilemuma the Assignes was plaved inowoa to get all he could for it by such saeans as luy fu his power, aud then 1 thought 1iut bis duty wis discharged, 1 dido’t expect shat he would get as much for it us he wouid us it llv.-sm‘: was sulvent, § Lhe paper was ot yet dug, and 1f the seearity bud been Hrst-clisg such as usually govs with commercial paper; 1 mton such s bankers usually take—rallroad stock or banic etock, or any ollier of what are Known as commercial stocks. [ aupposed the Asstizuro wuat wccept the situation aud do the best be coutd, o could not make it suy better, than It was. - » Jn several of these letters it s stated that thy writers of them do not dealin that class of securitics, §s It noti" s Well, 1 belleve so.” ’ ¢ Wus it sugested by Mr. Vocke® that a sale of this Siaats-Zeduny stock wmizhs possibly be ade aion some of the politicins 1u L tity ur dlists Who migut Le desirous ol having aa lu- duenee in Wiat paper ! At the time Mr, Vocke returied bls report of bis elfurts to scll, 1 stould think thst suiwe queation was raiscd—1 furzet whetbier 1 wude e statement or Mir. Vocke ‘mude lt—thut [ didn't suppose .nylmd{)’ would buy It bus wiis ticiauy, oF that hedidu’t syppuse wiybody woutd buy it,—1 bave forzutlep Buw Ll question wad o w—aud thut probably ey were oo 8 Tas suy evidence over como to your kuowle e that ab application wus wmade o apy pol- tieran to purchuas duis stock 1 “AYell, Mr. ltehiy was lovked upan as & palde thclan ul 1bat time.” “ Aud a very luthnate frlend of Beslug’s!™ +Mr. Coolbaugh was a very eetiva politician. Capt. Belineider Wad 8 protly pucdassl pelith the Bar Assocls- |